Origins of TROS

[Malechi]

Hey there guys,

I was posting a little encouragement about TROS last night on a new messageboard I've found for Australian gamers.  One of the board admins there made mention of a game he thought seemed very similar to to TROS's combat system.  Actually he claimed that TROS had ripped off this system etc etc...strong language indeed.  He claims there was a set of Choose Your Own Adventure books in the 80's that used a very similar mechanic of Attack vs Defence calls, maneuvres etc.  Now I've never been a fan of those Fighting Fantasy books or Choose Your Own Adventure books so I couldn't say what he was talking about and as yet he hasn't replied with specifics regarding them.  Just curious if Jake or anyone else for that matter was aware of the similarity (if it exists).  I find it difficult to believe that someone hasn't mentioned this before in passing.
here's a link to the actual "discussion" http://www.fantasyscifi.com/main/forum/topic.php?forum=49&topic=160

cheers

Jason K.

[Bill Cook]

And Eric Clapton ripped off the blues.  (That bastard.)

Well, I certainly hope designers have some sense of the magpie's feast.  Burning Wheel uses the concept of combat maneuvers, also, so who stole from who?  Should we check the dates for publication?  [/rhetorical]

To me, irritation with copy forward is an acceptable cost to allow the potential for innovation.  Even without regard to the ratio of ground-breaking nuggets to other, TROS is a novel manifestation.

[Malechi]

I agree wholeheartedly.  I don't for a minute think that rpgs should be derided for their influences.  My post in that discussion has said as much.  I'm not concerned about it personally, I'd just like to get "the word" from up above to give to those who seem intent upon dismissing the game on that note.  While I don't think its a complaint to worry about and could be seen as petty, I think getting more players for TROS is worth the discussion :)  Oh yeah, and I don't like people trashing TROS for no reason ;)

cheers

jason k.

[Brian Leybourne]

Some of you may recall me talking about a system in a 'choose your own adventure' style book which had a cool dueling system.

It involved each opponent deciding whether to be offensive or defensive that round (neither would know prior to rolling the dice - ideally different coloured dice),

what type of blow to use (slash, thrust or feint)

and where they were aiming (using an image of a body with various parts shown with numbers).

That's what he's using as the basis for claiming that TROS' combat system was a rip off...?

OH MY GOD! In the film Independance Day they had aliens coming to Earth! That's clearly a rip off of the 50's film The Day the Earth Stood Still, because that also had aliens coming to earth! They should sue!

Big surprise - two systems that are trying to model realism end up being similar. I'm shocked. No, really.

Brian.

[Ingenious]

There is logic to your words Brian...
.

Well, I WAS going to reply to this person but after their crappy service in making me a member, I said screw it.
A. They ban everyone with a yahoo email for anti-spam purposes but they DONT block hotmail email addresses?!?!?! Stupidity methinks...
B. They made me use my hotmail address which took half an hour to remember my password, gave up on that and reset my password..
C. They're tooooo f***ing stupid to just ban an IP address or a group of IP addresses for anti-spam purposes. Even if someone is on a dynamic IP like I am, they can still ban an IP address like 262.11*.* and shit.
D. They're waaaaaay too f***ing slow e-mailing me with my registration shit and/or they're having problems.

F***ing idiots those guys are. The ignorance of the author there is one thing, but the ignorance of the web-site developers/admins is astounding compared to even that.

FINALLY, after a freakin HOUR I got to post a reply.

-Ingenious

[Malechi]

Dude... while I appreciate your.. passion for this subject, I'm not sure that foul language and abuse are the key here.  Sure the guy claimed TROS was a possible ripoff, but I don't know one arguement on the internet that was won by taking such a hardcore stance and hurling abuse like that.  Meanwhile as for their website, I can't comment, I live in Australia where its hosted apparently and had no problems with it.  In any case I'm sure you got your point across regardless, we'll just have to see what his response is.  

cheers

Jason K.

[Ingenious]

It's mostly anger in general dude, directed towards my computer, my dialup in specific, their website and its administrators.. and the ignorance of that author. It all wound up in one post.

That, and nicotine withdrawal tends to not help the situation. Couple that with the 4:50am time.. and you see my point. I hope.

It isn't really passion, it's just that the guy is basically insulting my intelligence. He's comparing TROS to Austin Powers, Spaceballs, any spoof you've ever seen for cryin out loud. Any of the Scary Movie series for example.

And to say something is a ripoff when by definition there has to be a CLEAR similarity.. not just part of it, or some of it.. but the majority of it.
I had not heard of choose your own adventure shit before reading that, and it is reasonable to assume that Jake and his cohorts haven't either.. though I may be wrong in that assumption.

*shrug*
-Ingenious

:edit whiiile I did censor myself on here for the gratuitous usage of the word f***.. the message is still the same. And I was going to delete that post, but that's improper forum etiquette.. and it can also be used as a guide for anyone whom tries to register a name on there to reply.. as their FAQ suuuuucks. It has like, two questions in it. And now I depart to go find a cigarette.

[Malechi]

I'm not here to argue, just to clear up a few things..

I'm not sure how the 1st amendment works for an Australian website.  Not that its relevant really.

Next.. sure you're peeved ..whatever, the point of me posting here wasn't to bitch about some "idiot" somewhere else, it was merely to get some feedback to educate someone who was misinformed.  In doing so its quite possible that there could be another convert to the game, someone who otherwise wouldn't have even seen TROS.  Simple as that.  As a fan of the game I love to see other people play this game.  Thats got nothing to do with lining Driftwood coffers really, its about principle.  I see TROS as a superior product that deserves to be played by as many people as possible.  

I don't want to start an arguement over this on the TROS boards here as I don't think it does anything to further the game, suffice to say the matter is closed for me.  What I had hoped for was something a lot less vitriolic and perhaps a little more PR-bent.  But what do I know...

Jason K.

[Brian Leybourne]

I have to go with Jason on this one, Cory. Your post on their forum was pretty rude, and really makes us all look bad.

Not your finest work, man.

[Lance D. Allen]

Hm..

TRoS also "ripped off" White Wolf's dice mechanics, because it's d10s -vs- a TN for a number of successes..

It "ripped off" Shadowrun's priority-based character generation system..

Yet no one who ever notices these things considers them to be bad things. Most people consider the similarity (independently reached from everything I know) to be a bonus, as it gives a leg up to those who are familiar with the systems in question for understanding certain TRoSian concepts.

I'm all for making converts Jason, and I wish you luck.. But methinks you've found someone who's already decided themselves before they bother to get to know anything about the issue. Anyone who uses "ripped off" and, as Cory indicates, derides something without making the effort to get acquainted with it is likely to be too set in their ways. Hopefully some of the others will be less blind in their critical examination, though.

[Ingenious]

That was my take on the way his words flowed in that post too Wolfen.
The guy seemed so prejudiced against it without looking at the whole scope of things..
While looking back at my anger from earlier this morning, I do have to admit that it was a bit rude and bad form yadda yadda...
My reaction however was the same with this as previous people whom critique TROS without fully playing it, i.e. they don't know what the hell they are talking about. Regardless of me making you all look bad, I voiced my opinion to the merit of this guy's words. I am seldom one to hold back on my views on anything, that just isn't me. If I made any of you look so horrible, you are of course free to say so, and free to distance your viewpoint from mine on their forum.. or on this one.

I also have the same reaction with most of the liberal democrats in this government over here.. remembering stuff being said such as, 'Bush knew about 9/11 beforehand and did nothing to stop it' 'The war in Iraq is just for oil' 'We are purposely targeting and bombing innocent civilians' 'Bush betrayed his country' etc etc etc. It's pure baseless speculation, slander, libel and so forth unless one were to offer proof.

Aside from that, I should appologize again to that person for my seemingly rude and crass comments.


-Ingenious

[Brian Leybourne]

My reaction however was the same with this as previous people whom critique TROS without fully playing it, i.e. they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I didn't say I disagreed with your sentiment necessarily, just your tone :-)

Brian.

[Malechi]

Just one thing... can we please leave out the political garbage?  It has nothing to do with this discussion..

As for whether or not this guy is "convertable" or not I don't see his post as being that extreme.  Sure he started it with some strong words, but the final line is somewhat more acceptable in my eyes.

Regardless, lets all just get along eh? ;)

cheer

Jason K.

[casinormal]

Well, actually, back when I was a nameless Texan playtester (see the credits) in 2001, I commented to Jake that I could see influence from various games he's played (at least the ones I could recognize).  He said that he hoped it did not seem overly so, as he was trying to be original, but my analysis was not meant to be derogatory.  People ALWAYS use much of what they've seen and liked about other games in their own, and it's no crime.  A game is for fun, and I frankly don't care who came up with every individual idea.

Joel Norman

"Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand"
-Psalms 149:6

[Stephen]

Out of designers' curiosity, Jake, what were your influences for TROS?  Why did you make the design choices you did?  Why a Priorities chargen system rather than, say, universal point-build like GURPS or HERO?  Questions like that.

No intent of criticism involved -- I just like reading about how ideas travel from one work to another.