Cruxness in revision

[taalyn]

Some of you may remember Crux, an urban fantasy rpg using colored tokens instead of dice. Well, development went on hiatus for about 6 months, but I'm gearing up to start revising again. Though dev was on hiatus, playtesting wasn't, so I have some issues on which your help and thoughts would be appreciated. The details below are not the whole game, obviously, just the bits I'm having issues with.

Chargen
Characters start with 9 passions (some of which may be identical), and each passion grants three points (or motes) for aspects. Passions describe what you're passionate about, significant events, places, things, or people in your life, and activities you've spent considerable time developing skills in. Aspects are the skills and backgrounds of other systems, and also describe common quotes, descriptions, and objects that they keep around.

The issues:
- I feel like 9 is too many. I'm fine with Aspects at 27 or so, but 9 Passions means that scaling Passions for difficulty and challenge makes for huge lists. The bad guy that they build up to defeating, the archenemy, might be 20 Passions in strength. The question - am I just being silly here? Is 9 fine?

- Objects can have Passions or Aspects. Passion objects are hard, if not impossible, to lose (like Luke's lightsaber), while Aspect objects are simply cool gizmos you happen to have on hand. The problem - in chargen, how do you turn what has been setup as an Aspect object into a Passion object?

Mechanics
Basically, draw a number of tokens equal to your score in an Aspect. Colors that match the target color (the kind of action determines the color) are successes.

The issues:
- How to make this diceable? While it's not the intended method, I want it to be accessible to people who don't have the desire to use colors. It can't be a perfect match because each character has it's own probability pool and mix of colors, but it would be nice if it was close.

- There are three tokens called Fates: Boons, Banes, and Wyrds. Boons put the best possible spin on an action, regardless of success or failure, while Banes put the worst possible spin. Wyrd is just that - weird coincidence. The problem is that they're showing up to often. I had 5 draws in a row from one player contain the Bane. That's too much. Ideas on other ways to do these things and limit frequency? I was thinking of removing those tokens altogether, and doing something like 3 of the target color = Boon, 3 of the opposite color = Bane.

- Should there be a difference between drawing with a Passion or an Aspect?  A draw uses 3 default tokens, plus whatever you have in an appropriate Passion or Aspect. I feel that Passions should be different than an Aspect, but I also think that the difference in scope may be enough. If not, is a Passion better than an Aspect?

Magic
Very common in the game-world, magic occurs in two types: feits and raptures. Feits are single memorized/routine spells, while raptures are spontaneous spells. A character must have an Art (like wortcunning, or necromancy, or technomagery) in order to weave raptures.

The issues:
- How to distinguish between feits and Raptures in a draw? There are actually a couple layers here, from easiest to hardest:
 has an Art, throwing a feit
 no Art, throwing a feit
 has an Art, weaving a rapture
 no Art, weaving a rapture (if it's even possible)

 I've done various combinations of default/no default, Art or Feit score or nothing, and nothing so far seems very intuitive. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

Aidan

[Jason Lee]

Heya Aidan!

The issues:
- I feel like 9 is too many. I'm fine with Aspects at 27 or so, but 9 Passions means that scaling Passions for difficulty and challenge makes for huge lists. The bad guy that they build up to defeating, the archenemy, might be 20 Passions in strength. The question - am I just being silly here? Is 9 fine?

Hmmm... that depends.  Can you map them out like the following?

Daughter 4
Father's Shop 2
Newlywed Wife 1
Sunday Basketball Games 1
Motorcycle Hobbyist 1

If yes, then 9 seems fine.  Though, as I recall the stat scale in Crux, you'd have to add 2 to each if you wanted to allow them to be used as substitutionary stats, like using 'Father's Shop 2' instead of 'Dexterity 1' to fight to protect the family auto parts store from being looted.

If no, and it's just a list of nine... then my feeling is that nine is too many - dilutes the character concept too much.  A simple, clear concept is better and less Passions would encourage that.  This is an opinion question though, so gains of salt in your eye and all that.

The issues:
- How to make this diceable? While it's not the intended method, I want it to be accessible to people who don't have the desire to use colors. It can't be a perfect match because each character has it's own probability pool and mix of colors, but it would be nice if it was close.

The first thing that comes to mind is a dice step mechanic.  Roll 1d4 (2), 1d6 (3), 1d8 (4), 1d10 (5), 1d12 (6) as appropriate to the primary stat involved; roll 1d for each adjoining stat at one step lower (2 = 1d4); add Aspect rating to highest dice result; highest value wins.  Something like that?

- There are three tokens called Fates: Boons, Banes, and Wyrds. Boons put the best possible spin on an action, regardless of success or failure, while Banes put the worst possible spin. Wyrd is just that - weird coincidence. The problem is that they're showing up to often. I had 5 draws in a row from one player contain the Bane. That's too much. Ideas on other ways to do these things and limit frequency? I was thinking of removing those tokens altogether, and doing something like 3 of the target color = Boon, 3 of the opposite color = Bane.

That might sort of ensure that Boons occur on success (assured 3 in favor), and Banes on failure (assured useless 3).  In which case you could just have Boons apply when you succeed, and Banes apply when you fail (thus allowing you explain a 'failure' as a success gone awry).  However, that may not be what you're going for.  

Another idea.  You could have a Boon/Bane meter of some kind.  Drawing a Boon moves the meter right (good karma accumulates), a Bane moves the meter left (bad karma accumulates), and when you hit one of the end points (the bar could be say, five long) you get a Boon or Bane.

- Should there be a difference between drawing with a Passion or an Aspect?  A draw uses 3 default tokens, plus whatever you have in an appropriate Passion or Aspect. I feel that Passions should be different than an Aspect, but I also think that the difference in scope may be enough. If not, is a Passion better than an Aspect?

I feel like I might be missing something here.  Have you ditched the stat ring altogether?

[taalyn]

heya Jason! How's life treating you?

The issues:
- I feel like 9 is too many. I'm fine with Aspects at 27 or so, but 9 Passions means that scaling Passions for difficulty and challenge makes for huge lists. The bad guy that they build up to defeating, the archenemy, might be 20 Passions in strength. The question - am I just being silly here? Is 9 fine?

Hmmm... that depends.  Can you map them out like the following?

Daughter 4
Father's Shop 2
Newlywed Wife 1
Sunday Basketball Games 1
Motorcycle Hobbyist 1

If yes, then 9 seems fine.  Though, as I recall the stat scale in Crux, you'd have to add 2 to each if you wanted to allow them to be used as substitutionary stats, like using 'Father's Shop 2' instead of 'Dexterity 1' to fight to protect the family auto parts store from being looted.

Ahh...so much has changed! The Passions are used as is (mostly), and there is no need to spend more motes to expand scope.

If no, and it's just a list of nine... then my feeling is that nine is too many - dilutes the character concept too much.  A simple, clear concept is better and less Passions would encourage that.  This is an opinion question though, so gains of salt in your eye and all that.

This is exactly what I was thinking. One of the emphases of the game is on the power of Passion to accomplish great things, which creates another problem. If I reduce Passions because of dilution (a good idea, I think), then drawing on a Passion (because you don't have an appropriate Aspect) would mean your chances were less. I rationalized this as follows: though you are passionate about your daughter, you didn't focus on the future education Aspect, but on entertainment, cuddling, and playing. So though it is a Passion, you won't be as good as with the other stuff, though still better than if you didn't have the Passion at all.

A draw is 3 default motes plus the appropriate Aspect. When it comes to Passions, though, what to do? The obvious seems to be: draw default plus Passion divided by some number (2 or 3), rounded up. Though if there are less than 9 Passions, simply drawing default plus Passion accomplishes the same thing - your character will have much better Aspects than Passions (though Passions are more flexible in their usefulness).

How's that sound?

The issues:
- How to make this diceable? While it's not the intended method, I want it to be accessible to people who don't have the desire to use colors. It can't be a perfect match because each character has it's own probability pool and mix of colors, but it would be nice if it was close.

The first thing that comes to mind is a dice step mechanic.  Roll 1d4 (2), 1d6 (3), 1d8 (4), 1d10 (5), 1d12 (6) as appropriate to the primary stat involved; roll 1d for each adjoining stat at one step lower (2 = 1d4); add Aspect rating to highest dice result; highest value wins.  Something like that?

Well, there are stats no longer. Ditched 'em, and with the default 3 motes(representing average), it seems to work fine. That, and I hate using 47 different kinds of dice.

So, I think I'd want some sort of target number based on Aspects and/or Passions (you have daughter 4, so roll better than 6 on 3d6, or something), or some sort of dice pool mechanic. Of course, the diced mechanic needs to include some way of allowing for Fates too.

If any math geniuses out there would be willing to help, I can post more details on how a draw happens, so that you'd have an accurate picture of how the mechanic works, and could simulate probabilities somehow.

- There are three tokens called Fates: Boons, Banes, and Wyrds. Boons put the best possible spin on an action, regardless of success or failure, while Banes put the worst possible spin. Wyrd is just that - weird coincidence. The problem is that they're showing up to often. I had 5 draws in a row from one player contain the Bane. That's too much. Ideas on other ways to do these things and limit frequency? I was thinking of removing those tokens altogether, and doing something like 3 of the target color = Boon, 3 of the opposite color = Bane.

That might sort of ensure that Boons occur on success (assured 3 in favor), and Banes on failure (assured useless 3).  In which case you could just have Boons apply when you succeed, and Banes apply when you fail (thus allowing you explain a 'failure' as a success gone awry).  However, that may not be what you're going for.  

Talking with one of my semi-collaborators last night, I think we came up with the perfect solution:

Every caern has a single Fate token, of some color other than the other 7 (such as balck, white, stripey, plaid, puce, etc.). At chargen, the player defines a single color for the Boon, Bane, and Wyrd. A very agile char might have assign Amber (dex, among other things) to the Boon, and assign Green (mind) to the Bane. This would be some sort of dumb jock char, I guess.  Wyrd could be any color - he choose clear for s&g.

How those colors are assigned can be on any basis the player chooses - Boon goes with the most predominant color in their caern, or the color symbolizing their relationship with some god, or even the players favorite color. There are no rules on what can be chosen.

When making a draw and the Fate is pulled, the player checks their colors. The most predominant color (of the assigned Boon, Bane, and Wyrd colors) defines what kind of Fate it is. If there are two or more colors present in equal amount, both or all are considered drawn (All usually works out to the Wyrd, since the players usually choose to have the Boon and Bane cancel each other).

The other cool thing about this is that you get some idea of the intensity of the Fate. Say you assign red to the Boon, green to the Bane, and blue to the Wyrd. On a draw, you get the fate, along with 3 red and 2 green. That's a Boon, but just barely. Later, you draw the fate with 2 red only. That's a pretty good Boon.

whaddaya think?

Another idea.  You could have a Boon/Bane meter of some kind.  Drawing a Boon moves the meter right (good karma accumulates), a Bane moves the meter left (bad karma accumulates), and when you hit one of the end points (the bar could be say, five long) you get a Boon or Bane.

Oooh, I like this! But, I don't think it fits with the way the rest of the mechnic works, and one of the points of the game is to avoid the idea of karma altogether. So...I don't think it will work.

But as I said I like it - maybe I'll have to do a 24 hour game based on the idea!

I feel like I might be missing something here.  Have you ditched the stat ring altogether?

Yes and no. No stats, but there are threshholds. These record the makeup of your caern (just in case), and also provide "hit points". Take more wounds of a color than your threshhold in that color - very not so good.

Aidan

[Shreyas Sampat]

One obvious hole in that treatment of the Fate is that players will have a very easy route to avoiding Banes if they so choose by simply associating Bane with their smallest colour, and likewose for maximizing Boons.

I suggest that the Fate be character-independent: going the Alyria route, the Boon resolves a conflict in the service of Good (which is an objective and impersonal force), and a Bane in the service of Evil. (Or something like that.) This permits the players to make interesting choices with Boon and Bane, rather than simply using them as routes to maximal effectiveness.

[taalyn]

Shreyas,

  That's true. Min-maxing is easy. And it's meant to be that way. Or can. There are plenty of ways of using these factors against a character if necessary. One of the chargen rules is "Yes!", for example. If a character is munchkinned, I say hose them with their own skills (or lack thereof). In a world a inclusive and expansive as the Coil (Crux's setting), no matter how awesome you are, there's always something worse, because anything ever imagined (and some things that haven't yet) can be found there.

 Got a munchkinned combat monster? Face them with Slake-moths, from China Mieville's Perdido Street Station - they exist in multiple dimensions and feed on consciousness. No matter how big your guns, you're going to have a very difficult time wounding them in all their dimensions at once.

 A munchkinned psychic/telepath? Throw a brain looper (from Jonathan Tweet and Robin Laws' Over the Edge) at them.

 And that doesn't even count subtle problems their power will bring - such as multiple covert organizations seeking them out for experimentation, cloning, elimination, brainwashing, etc.

 Also, I understand you're making reference to the way Alyria does it, but Good and Evil are concepts alien to Crux (as much as they can be, anyway). Even the "bad guys" of the setting, the Marahh, out to eliminate humanity, (are attempting to) do so because of valid concerns. They're nothing more than a political division, really. Much like certain religious groups, who have valid reasons within their own faith system for taking such actions.  

Aidan

[Shreyas Sampat]

It isn't the precise implementation I'm talking about here, or whather Good/Evil are absolutes, it's the fact that, as you have them set up, there is no interesting reason to configure Boon and Bane differently than the maximally efficient options.

Which, if you ask me, is the same thing as setting them as those options as the default. Which doesn't seem to be your actual design goal. If you want to have your options be meaningful, then they don't have to be equally effective, but they have to be sifficiently distinct that each one is worth choosing!

(And, personally, I don't think it's ever a satisfying thing to say, "you can never be the coolest thing, ever"... but that's an ideological point, not a game design point.)

[taalyn]

Okay, I see what you're saying. Just to put my communication skills to work, you're saying that there's no meaningful or significant reason to pick any color over another, except the maximally efficient options.

So, let's suggest some of the following as possibilities:

- any color can be chosen for the Boon, except the color most present in your caern, and conversely, any color for the Bane except the one least represented. Any color at all for the Wyrd.
- GM assigns color based on described personality.
- Thinking seriously about the idea that 9 Passions waters down the character, I'm considering a move to only 3 (with appropriately increased Aspect points).  Then each Passion's color would be assigned to one of the Fates, so that Guitar is my Boon, School is my Bane (Passionate but unlucky), and Fast Cars is my Wyrd, or Amber, Green, and Blue (willpower) respectively.
- Player describes their character's greatest fear - the appropriate color is the Bane, and the opposite color is the Boon, and the Wyrd could be drawn at random.
- Draw each color at random to assign.

 Any other ideas? Any of those strike your fancy? I think I'm partial to the fear method and the passion method, simply because they tie the mechanic back to the emotional and psychological facets of the character, thereby emphasizing them.

 And ideologically, on being the coolest ever, I agree. I think I forgot your games for a sec there, because it should have been obvious, really...=)

Aidan

[Shreyas Sampat]

Yeah, exactly! These new ideas are great. I definitely like 3 and 4, too; it'll change the emphasis of the game depending on which you choose, but I think both are clearly good options.

Incidentally, I'm glad to see that you've come back to this.

(As for being the coolest thing ever, I don't like it as a default (usually), but I like to believe it is a viable option, even if it's the coolest thing in a very narrow field)

Edit:

"GM assigns color based on described personality" might turn out to become a very strong personality-defining mechanic.

[Jason Lee]

heya Jason! How's life treating you?

Doing all right.  Good to type at ya again.

This is exactly what I was thinking. One of the emphases of the game is on the power of Passion to accomplish great things, which creates another problem. If I reduce Passions because of dilution (a good idea, I think), then drawing on a Passion (because you don't have an appropriate Aspect) would mean your chances were less. I rationalized this as follows: though you are passionate about your daughter, you didn't focus on the future education Aspect, but on entertainment, cuddling, and playing. So though it is a Passion, you won't be as good as with the other stuff, though still better than if you didn't have the Passion at all.

A draw is 3 default motes plus the appropriate Aspect. When it comes to Passions, though, what to do? The obvious seems to be: draw default plus Passion divided by some number (2 or 3), rounded up. Though if there are less than 9 Passions, simply drawing default plus Passion accomplishes the same thing - your character will have much better Aspects than Passions (though Passions are more flexible in their usefulness).

Also (if the math works out), with less Passions might it be possible to add Passions to any draw?  Default draw: 3 + Aspect + Passion.  Passion would only apply some of the time - in cases of Passion.  So, 3 + Passion could still occur.  

Are Passions more flexible, yet would less often coincide with resolution?

Well, there are stats no longer. Ditched 'em, and with the default 3 motes(representing average), it seems to work fine. That, and I hate using 47 different kinds of dice.

So, I think I'd want some sort of target number based on Aspects and/or Passions (you have daughter 4, so roll better than 6 on 3d6, or something), or some sort of dice pool mechanic. Of course, the diced mechanic needs to include some way of allowing for Fates too.

If any math geniuses out there would be willing to help, I can post more details on how a draw happens, so that you'd have an accurate picture of how the mechanic works, and could simulate probabilities somehow.

Ah... ok.  With dice pools the easy trick is to have wacky stuff spring up on doubles , triples, etc.  Like triple 3 Bane, triple 4 Wyrd, triple 5 Boon.

[a bunch of stuff about Fate]

Ooh, I'm siding with Shreyas Sampat.  I'm partial to #3 and #4 as well.  I'm a little more partial to #3, because it's ever so slightly more elegant and leaves the option open to play a character without emotions.

Another brainstormed option, similar to #2 in some ways, is that you could assign (heh, get this) alignment to each color.  Like, Blue equals Justice and Green equals Envy.  The player makes the decision based upon the character's personality.

*****

BTW - I like being the coolest ever, provided the character has a fatal weakness or reason to hold himself in check.

[Darcy Burgess]

Another possibility for handling boon/bane/wyrd popping up too often is the following.

Add a single "control" chit to the mix.  Distinguishable from everything else.  The boon/bane/wyrd only occurs if the control chit is ALSO drawn.  This effectively increases the number of chits relative to the boon/bane/wyrd chits without actually requiring twice as many chits.

As an upshot, if a boon/bane/wyrd/control chit is drawn without its necessary partner, it should be replaced?  That's an optional idea.

Also, a die mechanic would be a great help.  I would try CRUX with my group, except that I have two players who are the poster boys for "Dexterity?  We don't need no stinkin' Dexterity!".  Rolling dice is a challenge for them some days (sorry guys...).  I can't imagine how long action resolution would take if they're pulling chits from bowls.... :)

Regards,

[taalyn]

Bunch of stuff all in one post...


Fate assignment
 I think #3 (assign Passion colors to the Fates) is the way to go. One of the concerns with personality/fear stuff is that we'd be effectively linking personality to luck, and while it would work, it doesn't feel right. I can't say what exactly... I guess part of it is that the colors don't necessarily lend themselves to personality - Red is about the body, for example, so it would describe an athlete, but not her personality.

 The concern with doing the Passion thing is what to do when your passions are all the same color? I think having the player choose a separate color for each Passion, only for Fate purposes, would probably be fine. I did it in the example in the list, since Fast Cars should technically be Amber. But I'd already used that, so I gave it the next appropriate color.

 Another thing to keep in mind is that an Amber Passion is very likely to have lots of Amber Aspects, so though the mindset behind the assignment is good, effectively it can be identical with simply picking the most common color in your caern. Don't know about this - maybe the personality system should be developed and used....

 Control chits
 Good idea. It's definitely a possibility, especially if the comments above make a personality system unworkable. But what color? I've already got 10 colors in there, and I'm leery of making players figure out or buy yet ANOTHER color! This is partly why I like the system above - cuts the colors down again - it can be very difficult to see the difference between the Bane (black) and blue or green, depending.

 The Dexless
Surprisingly, I have found that once the players get a hang of the draw and colors, it goes MUCH faster. It's easier to say " red that's 2, green, nope, blue, nope, amber, that's 3 now..."  than to do the math on dice. Of course, slow rollers still tend to be slow drawers, but the system is generally more intuitive than the math, I've found.

 using Passions
 Passions could be included on a draw, but they're quite unlikely to occur with an Aspect, since the Aspect is derived from the Passion (Passion of Daughter, Aspects of Playing, Changing Diapers, Silly, for example). Generally, no, the Passion isn't included in a draw.
 Passions are more flexible, but don't occur in resolution very often. They can be used for narrative control, hack-writer's gambit, redrawing, automatic 2 successes (or maybe more, since they'll be rarer), making it harder for your opponent, and so on.


 Finally, thanks for your support guys. Mike has been a huge help in making me get it going again, and I'm glad he did. It's also nice to hear that people are glad I'm coming back to it.

 I'm glad I took the break though - I've been going back through what I wrote, and I'm saying "Ick!". So I'm rewriting, and that's good.

Aidan

[Jason Lee]

Surprisingly, I have found that once the players get a hang of the draw and colors, it goes MUCH faster. It's easier to say " red that's 2, green, nope, blue, nope, amber, that's 3 now..."  than to do the math on dice. Of course, slow rollers still tend to be slow drawers, but the system is generally more intuitive than the math, I've found.

I know this isn't a particularly helpful response (no ideas), but you might have better luck porting the system to cards instead of dice.  That is, if you are just trying to present a more 'accessible' option for resolution.

Passions could be included on a draw, but they're quite unlikely to occur with an Aspect, since the Aspect is derived from the Passion (Passion of Daughter, Aspects of Playing, Changing Diapers, Silly, for example). Generally, no, the Passion isn't included in a draw.
 Passions are more flexible, but don't occur in resolution very often. They can be used for narrative control, hack-writer's gambit, redrawing, automatic 2 successes (or maybe more, since they'll be rarer), making it harder for your opponent, and so on.

Coolness.  As long as there is some way for the players to influence events via the Passions, then you'll have a means for character driven stories.

[taalyn]

Ah, way ahead of you, Jason! Cards are already planned for inclusion, because they are easier. But there are still going to be some people who want "Dice, dammit!", so I want to provide some sort of imperfect solution.

I say imperfect because the system just can't be duplicated by dice. But I think there should be something that would work well enough...

Aidan

[Jason Lee]

Ah, way ahead of you, Jason! Cards are already planned for inclusion, because they are easier. But there are still going to be some people who want "Dice, dammit!", so I want to provide some sort of imperfect solution.

Ooh... I've been dusted. ;)

I say imperfect because the system just can't be duplicated by dice. But I think there should be something that would work well enough...

All right, let's have those Caern building and draw process details; complete with minimum, average and maximum values.  I'll see if I can math all over it (or spur someone smarter to).

[taalyn]

Ewww...I hope you clean the math off of it before you post it.  =D

Caern Building
- Start with 3 motes (tokens) of each color.
- Draw 12 from the Guide's caern (a balanced bag with 6 of each), redrawing if you get one of the Fates. These 14 motes represent genetics.
- Assign 8 motes among all the colors however you like.
- Add a mote for Fate (usually striped or white, to be distinctive), and you're done.

 A caern will thus have 42 motes (21+12+8+1). Every character will have different numbers of motes in their caern, so their probabilities will be different. Over a large sample of possible caerns, it averages out to the same probabilities as a balanced caern, which is approximately 6 of each color: Red, Amber, Green, Cyan, Blue, Magenta, and Clear.

the Draw
 Start with a default of 3 motes. Add any appropriate Aspect. Draw that many motes from your caern.
 For every mote that matches the color of the task, get 2 Power.
 For every mote that is next to the color of the task, get 1 Power.
 If you draw the Fate, and you have drawn on of the Fate colors defined for your character, you get the Fate (Boon, Bane, Wyrd) of the appropriate type. If there are equal numbers, you get both Fates.
 Succeed by getting more Power than the Obstacle, or than your opponent.

 Minimum draw is 1 (possible if you are wounded, which can negate the default hand) and there is no maximum. Average is usually 5 or 6 motes in the draw. In general, the average Power that can be expected from a draw is equal to the hand divided in half. So, the average Power is 3, with a minimum of 0, and no maximum (though in play, average max hand is 10, for a power of 5). Maximum Power for any hand is generally twice the value - average max power is thus 12.


Example Draws
 I have the Aspect "Shoot Things A4", and I plan to use it on the Marahh Terat heading my way. She has the Aspect "Shapeshift R2".

 I will draw 7 motes, 3 for default, and 4 for my Aspect. My target is Amber (the A in A4). I get 2 red, an amber, a blue, 2 cyan, and a clear. That is 4 Power, 2 for the Amber, and 1 for each of the Reds.

 The Terat draws 5 motes, targeting Red, hoping to shift shapes into something with holes where the bullet will be. She draws an amber, 2 greens, a magenta, and the Fate. Green happens to be her Bane color, so she ends up with 2 Power (1 for amber, 1 for magenta) and the Bane. Failure, with the worst possible spin. Poor Terat.

 Is that enough?

Aidan