Abusing SAs?

[Tash]

I was discussing character ideas with one of the guys in my group and he mentioned the idea of having "Drive: Hates to Loose" as an SA.  Now on the surface I see nothing wrong with it, all the really successful people I've met have one thing in common: they hate to loose and push themselves relentlessly to avoid it.

On the other hand I can see how an SA that could be potentially invoked for every single roll is a really bad idea.  

Thoughts on this?

[kenjib]

How about only triggering it when he is forced to make a hard decision - he has to give something important up or compromise his beliefs to "win".

Nobody likes to lose.  It's only when someone is really willing to toss it all away in order to win, win, win, just for the sake of winning, that it really becomes a drive worth noting.

EDIT:  So, duelling his arch-enemy in an honor match won't trigger it.  Duelling his arch-enemy in an honor match when his life's love has sworn she will never speak to him again if he harms said arch-enemy will most definitely trigger it.

[Bankuei]

Hi Tash,

I define Drives as definite goals, that you can name some steps towards achieving.  Things like, "Become the king", "Get revenge on the 6 fingered man" are all definite goals.  "Never lose", is not.  You can't name specific steps to not lose, at anything, ever.  A better(and more fun) drive might be, "Become a god".  "Hates losing" is a feeling, not a goal.  A simple test is to have your players list some concrete steps they could take towards achieving said Drive.  If they can't, its not a Drive.

Chris

[Valamir]

Chris's solution would be mine also.

But if you really don't want to say "no", then the key is in the interpretation.

There is no such thing as an "always on" SA...period, no exceptions ever.

"hates to lose", yeah, I can see the logic of it as an SA.  When things are bad, the character's in way over his head, and the bad guy is pretty much cleaning the floor with him...that's when I'd let the SA turn on...*IF* the potential loss was meaningful.  

This would sort of be the Hulk Hogan getting fired up at the end of a match he was "losing" effect.

But before I allowed it, the character had better be in deep.  Fighting superior opponents, against impossible odds.  If its a fight situation, the most likely statistical outcome had better be his death or dismemberment...THEN he can use the SA.  But fighting a mook that he should expect to mop the floor with...no...

Such an SA is then the reward for a player voluntarily getting his character into more trouble than he can possibly handle.  I suspect his life would be short, but he should get a decent number if Insight out of it before he goes.

[Alan]

I agree with Chris and Ralph - "Hates to Lose" is too vague to be a Drive, and if it was allowed it should have conditions for activation.

Also, an SA has two aspects: first, when is it activated; and second, when do you earn points for it.  

What would the player have to do to earn points in "Drive: Hates to Lose" ?

[Lxndr]

Turn down the additional SA dice when in a losing situation, and win anyway.

At least, that's my gut reaction.

[Lance D. Allen]

I'd allow it with the interpretation put forth by Ralph and Lx.

Generally, I don't think it's actually possible to abuse SAs.. only to use them.

I do, however, strictly limit passions.. It *must* be a love, a hate or a loyalty, and it must be toward a fairly specific entity. Love of winning or hatred of losing are not valid SAs in my book.

[Ingenious]

Well, this is where I differ from Wolfen's logic.
I view passions as things that can also be fairly vague.
Greed for example is the love of money, and gluttony is the love of food.. etc. Greed as an SA is vague, but if you look at it in the way that I do.. it is not a catch-all as it seems to be. It can be applied to major heists, or for stealing something that can end in the death of the character. Taking a sacred artifact from the Fey simply for greed would be a good example... so weigh the consequences of the greed before you apply the SA to the situation. Gluttony however, as far as the love of food goes.. is pretty vague. It wouldnt normally be a good idea to have an SA like that, except for a peasant who normally has little to nothing to eat.. yet whom loves food.. and is willing to lie, cheat, steal, or sell his soul for some food.

The hates losing thing as a 'passion' can be used, but limited to situations in which the character is losing badly but should be winning.. or losing badly period. It wouldnt be applied IMO to situations where the character basically is 'supposed' to win given the odds in a given situation...even if the shit hits the proverbial fan. I don't think it should be considered a drive..

In reponse to Alan's question of what the character has to do to earn points with the hating to lose SA.. is have it activate in a dire situation where all seems lost.. yet he 'overcomes the odds'. If he were in a fight with a Gol, for example(however foolish that is), and he is getting his ass handed to him on a silver plate.. then the 'second wind' idea/ the ole Hulk Hogan 'hulking up' thing would be a reasonable explanation. This goes to show the character's ability to laugh in the face of adversity, and potential win. Or at least attempt to win.

Heh, we're all saying the same thing anyways.
-Ingenious

[Alan]

You've also missed the social aspect of "Hates to Lose"  The player might earn points any time the character refuses to back down in any way.  Refuse to accept a loss at cards and do something about it - earn a point.  Refuse to take no for an answer and earn a point.  This character could be quite a hell-raiser - and consequently, the player would have to work hard to both earn points for the SA _and_ keep the character alive.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

You've also missed the social aspect of "Hates to Lose"  The player might earn points any time the character refuses to back down in any way.  Refuse to accept a loss at cards and do something about it - earn a point. (SNIP)

And then there's the frustration aspect. Can't find they keys to his chest and accuses another PC. Can't find his vambraces and refuses to fight until whoever stole them brings them back. Yep, "Hates to Lose" things could be an awkward SA.

Cheers,

[Valamir]

Yep, "Hates to Lose" things could be an awkward SA.

Awkward?  heh, unless you're a nobleman who can get away with doing and saying whatever he wants...that kind of social behavior would likely get you regularly flogged, if not killed.  :-)

[Lxndr]

Have you ever been flogged?  It's really awkward.  Especially afterwards.

[timfire]

I'll just add one thing - Did Hulk Hogan "Hulk-up" because he didn't want to lose, or because he had Drive/Destiny: Become WWF Champion?

[Lance D. Allen]

He "Hulked up" because that's what the fans expected and wanted to see.

"Hulk" Hogan is a character, just like the characters we play in our games.

I want to see Inigo Montoya totally destroy the six-fingered man. So when I create my character Inigo, I give him the SAs

Drive: find the man who killed my father
Passion: hatred of the six-fingered man
Destiny: avenge my father after delivering an overly-rehearsed and hokey (tho fun!) tagline.

This is what I expect to happen. This is what I want to happen. This is what I built the character to do.