ALTERNATE APPROACH TO THE KILLING DRAGONS and misc epic foes

[spunky]

The damage and combat system of TROS, while unparalled when dealing with humans, get real nasty when dealing with ogres, dragons, giants, and B.L.'s beloved ubertrollen.  The combat system is in no way broken, mind you, but several threads have already pointed out that ANY hit from one of these creatures will kill the toughest character, unless he or she happens to be a well prepared sorcerer, or beefed up with magic armor from SOME OTHER game system.   Additionally, doing enought damage to nick a creature with a Toughness of 20-30 requires not only skill, SAs, and magic, but also the seeming complicity of the creature itself.

An alternate way of adjudicating combat with these beasties is to steal the mechanic from Jason Blair's LITTLE FEARS, and instead of treating these monsters as NPCs, treat them as INTELLIGENT TRAPS.

When dealing with TRAPS, it's all about figuring out how to disarm the trap, or survive it.  Apply this to a dragon.  You're simply not going to hurt it with an arrow or a sword -- UNLESS you know about the WEAK SPOT, whether you NOTICE it on your own, or the talking bird tells you about it.  The Weak Spot, of course, has a Toughness of 7-10 -- still high, but within the realm of possibility.

As far as the creature's attack, you could roll for them, but why?  The excitement in fighting a dragon doesn't come from wondering whether the dragon will hit you.  OF COURSE it's going to hit you -- unless YOU get out of the way.    The dragon has a prestablished level of success, for biting, clawing, tail sweeps, wing buffets, etc.  

First of all, this speeds up combat, allowing the Seneschal to concentrate on setting the scene.  More importantly, it gives the Seneschal more options to keep smart but unlucky characters alive.  Blew the roll to get out of the way?  The Seneschal might rule that the glancing blow sent you into the wall -- you're concussed, ribs broken, but alive (assuming said beastie isn't hungry).  Whereas, if you stay faithful to the rules as presented, you're stuck with a lethal wound.  No middle ground, no second chance.  Great for purists, but potentially awful for the narrative.

(BTW, that's another way to deal with damage from massive creatures.  Treat them as FALLS, if you don't mind the extra time it takes.  Let's say a Dragon smacks your character for a mere level 7 wound.  Rolling on the fall chart might distribute the damage among several locations (a level 3 and 2 level 2s) instead of concentrating them with the inevitable lethal result.)

But back to the Trap idea.  You can apply it to all attacks a creature can dish out, and it shifts the play from the tactical juiciness that TROS excels at -- but in this case, feels inappropriate ("I counter the Dragon's claws with my rapier!") and pushes the narrative into the foreground -- the dice roll becomes less important than the DESCRIPTION of HOW your character is getting out of the way (SAs, anyone?).  And defeating these legendaries becomes more epic, when the play becomes not just about killing the dragon but FIGURING OUT how to kill the dragon -- whether by finding its weak spot (THE HOBBIT) or discovering its True Name (WIZARD OF EARTHSEA).

Etc, etc, etc.

[Caz]

Weak spots on huge beasts! (like soft underbellies) I like it!
   I also like the idea of treating as a fall.  If you can't picture a huge dragon lashing out to obliterate a man like a tiger would, but more like attacking with a big, slow bear paw that would spread out the hit or toss the character.
   It still seems pretty realistic to me, as well as a little less lethal.  
Not that you wouldn't be an idiot if you still did the d&d "Our party draws swords and proceeds into the dragon's cave" bit.
   One thing I love about TROS is the characters have to go about dragon hunting like they were really going dragon hunting.  Some means they've come up with have been hiring a company of pikement to wait outside the cave, along w/a poisoned ballista, then smoking out the dragon.  Or setting ground booby traps up outside the troll den and then when it's stuck going after it with boar spears.  Big fun.

[Lance D. Allen]

I'm not so sure about the intelligent trap part, but I definitely like the idea of treating the damage like falling damage, and the weak-spot idea has potential as well.

[spunky]

The concept of "intelligent trap" is more of a mindset than something that requires actual mechanics.  Take Smaug, for example: he can breath on you (you die), bite you (you die), claw you (you die) or crush you (you die).  Additionally, he can knock you down with gusts from his wings or sweep you with his tail.  Instead of playing Smaug as an NPC, using tactics intelligently (at which point SAs be damned, the party is f*cked), making him into a trap, from the mechanical POV, has two great advantages:

1.  It reduces the Seneschal's paperwork to damn near nil, and as I am nothing if not lazy, this greatly appeals to me;

2.  If places the focus of the scene not so much on what the dragon will do, what what on the players will do.  If they come up with a good plan, and roll well (SAs here), they MIGHT succeed.  If they fail, they die.  But either way their fate is ultimtely in THEIR hands, not the dragons.

Granted, this is a very NARRATIVE approach, and will not feel satisfying to the SIMULATIONIST in all of us.

[Caz]

This weakness for monsters thing reminded me of that fight with the troll in the LOTR movie again.  
   Its TO was too high for any of them to actually cause it real injury, until it opened its mouth wide, not much TO there.  A tough spot to get at, but with no antitroll weapon, that was it.

[Tash]

This weakness for monsters thing reminded me of that fight with the troll in the LOTR movie again.  
   Its TO was too high for any of them to actually cause it real injury, until it opened its mouth wide, not much TO there.  A tough spot to get at, but with no antitroll weapon, that was it.

You mean Legolas doesn't count as an anti-troll weapon?

[Kaare Berg]

Before this all devolves into a Legolas as an anti-troll-weapon-discussion (I agree with Tash for the record), I would like to state that the idea of treating legendary monsters as intelligent traps works wonders for me for the same reasons as Spunky, and I would like to add a third:

3. It allows you as the narrator/GM/storyteller/whatever to develop the creature as you go along. Leaving you with much more lee way when it comes to the monster in general, sort of preserving the mystery for you aswell.

I do however disagree with the notion:

Instead of playing Smaug as an NPC, using tactics intelligently (at which point SAs be damned, the party is f*cked),

This sort of defeats the entire concept of intelligent traps, reducing this wonderful creature to no more than an end of level boss from any video game.

The trick IMO is to do this with restraint and thus emphasise the dramatic potential of the scenem making the players victory a bit more sweeter than a single arrow shot through the mouth. If they have to outsmart the dragon before they get to use their well researched secret knowledge to deliver that fatal arrow . . . well you get the picture.

This may just be a difference in wording and flavour, but its what works for me. The great thing about your idea Spunky is that it is universially adaptable, and can be used in any game.

Peace

K

[Tash]

I was kind of joking with the comment about Legolas being an AT (get it, AT, anti-tank, anti-troll...hehehehe I crack myself up) weapon but in real game terms I guess anyone with a CP as high as the members of the fellowship would have probably does count as an anti-anything weapon.

[spunky]

I do however disagree with the notion:

Instead of playing Smaug as an NPC, using tactics intelligently (at which point SAs be damned, the party is f*cked),

This sort of defeats the entire concept of intelligent traps, reducing this wonderful creature to no more than an end of level boss from any video game.

True -- the idea is to put the focus on the PC's actions.  If I as GM played Smaug intelligently -- whoops -- let's not say "intelligently" -- it's the wrong word.  Let's say, I play Smaug "to win."

Now: not only do I use my vast power as a 40 ton fire breathing flying lizard, but I also do things like recon, maybe spending the odd coin or cup to get the lowdown on what's up in Laketown; maybe even bribing Azog to come settle in Dale and keep these humanz in line.  And I definitely kill that f*cking thrush.   But then, I'm not acting like an egomaniacal dragon, but an intelligent human player exploiting all possibilities, including reading the book I happen to be in.  I have become, in short, a gamist.

Treating a powerful monster as a trap kind of forces the narrative style on you as the Seneschal -- it's harder to exploit a trap than an NPC/monster with 4 pages of description (which comes from one of my own foibles: if I bother to write up a page or more on a creature, it WILL hand the party their collective ass in a brown paper bag).

But ultimately, I think we're in agreement, and I agree with your concern -- the monster, or trap, or boss, should never FEEL like a creature on autopilot.  The narration of its actions should be as dynamic, the description as terrifying.  And the fact that it doesn't have to roll to hit you may heighten that, even for Legolas, when he realizes he is fighting a foe that does not miss...