S&S humanity definition

[BPetroff93]

I'm trying to reconcile the humanity descriptor for S&S with the definition of sorcerous acts as humanity violators (or at lease humanity risky).  If humanity is empathy than sorcerous acts should be acts that violate empathy, correct?  However in S&S the humanity as empathy only applies to people you know.  So empathy with humanity in general is not an issue.  This doesn't really jive with me when I consider the source material. For example, Thoth-Amoun did not personally know his sacrafices to Set.

 I think humanity as empathy is correct for S&S, however it is not the same kind of empathy as in conventional Sorcerer. I don't think it differs in scope (people you personally know vs. those you don't) but rather in quality (what is the value of a human life).  I don't think "life" has any value in the world of S&S per se, but one's psyche does.  I think it comes down to more of an issue of respect.  You can kill a man, steal his stuff or take over his kingdom, but using him as a sacrafice is just plain wrong.  This applies even if he is a complete stranger.  It violates his value as a human being.  Also contacting or summoning up otherworldly things that veiw humans as "inferior" is to call humanity into question, even if the act itself does not involve harm to "someone you know."  

I'm especially curious to know how this has factored into anyone's actual S&S game.  Also I was wondering what Ron's thoughts, as author, are in this regard?  Is this what you meant by your humanity definition in S&S?  Or do you feel that the definition as literally written is more in keeping with the source material?  If the latter, how do you reconcile this with the nature of sorcerous acts as humanity risky?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

The older thread for you to check out is: Premise in S&Sword.

Also, I should clarify something: that whole business about Humanity in Sorcerer & Sword is not a rule like "a titanium breastplate weighs 22 pounds." It's an idea. It's also an idea that relies on the observation that, in the source literature, the protagonist typically comes to know at least one person, sometimes a whole community, very well during a story. That's something that I think zips right past the gamer mind-set, especially for those who have spent years playing gloomy loners. The whole point of a gloomy loner (samurai, western, sword-and-sorcery, whatever) is that he or she gets involved. Oh sure, he screams and kicks and claims he really doesn't care about Widow Smith and her failing farm, but he's lying. He's a big softy, Conan included. But in Sorcerer terms, his or her Humanity is on the line mere moments into a story, or at least as soon as the hero gets his or her ass kicked.

So don't make that advice in Sorcerer & Sword harder than it is. The best way to interpret it is to say, "A fantasy hero protagonist is under just as much pressure as any other regarding Humanity, and quite likely more."

Best,
Ron

[Supplanter]

I've had scattered notes for an S&S campaign for a few years now (since the PDF days). In that notional campaign, the Humanity::Empathy relation flips - your PC's Humanity score isn't your ability to empathize; it's your ability to stir empathy in others - it's that quality that causes others to see you as "like me." Parabolically speaking, it's not something in the Good Samaritan that causes him to stop; it's something in the wounded Judean that the Samaritan recognizes.

Humanity drops represent the loss of that which causes others to regard you as their fellow. It seems to fit with the regard non-sorcerers hold for sorcerers in much of the literature.

Best,


Jim

[BPetroff93]

Thanks Ron, that makes sense.  It clarifies the issue nicely.  Thanks Jim for the info as well

[Valamir]

Jim, good to see you pop in from time to time.

I'm definitely filing that one away for future use.

[Demada]

I wouldn't call Conan a big softie... of course, I wouldn't call him a gloomy loner either. There's a difference between being a gloomy loner and being alone cause all your friends got killed a few days earlier (which seems to be the case in a lot of Conan stories).

Elric maybe a softie,  but Conan... no.

[joshua neff]

I wouldn't call Conan a big softie... of course, I wouldn't call him a gloomy loner either. There's a difference between being a gloomy loner and being alone cause all your friends got killed a few days earlier (which seems to be the case in a lot of Conan stories).

Elric maybe a softie,  but Conan... no.

Really? The last two Conan stories I read ("Black Collosus" & "Iron Shadows in the Moon"), a young woman asks Conan for help, & despite the fact that he has little to gain from it (& usually a lot to lose), he says yes with little deliberation. I'd say "big softie" sums it up pretty well.

[BPetroff93]

umm....i wasn't trying to imply that Conan was a big softy.  I wasn't really saying anything specific about Conan or any S&S literary hero just trying to get a better handle on humanity handling in S&S.