The Lord of the Rings

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Not a whole lotta time as I'm supposedly "on vacation" and should be "away from the computer" for five days...

I was pondering The Film on the way down to Baltimore last night and wondering how I would do the Moria scene justice using a RPG. Of course, there's talk on other site forums about the same subject and yes, D&D was mentioned.

And I totally, totally, agree. D&D could easily be used in that kind of scene.

And it would be totally, totally the wrong choice.

Because D&D is too cerebral (!!!). Too much brain, not enough heart -- and there's my major criticism of the game system. I don't need to mention GNS concerns or Stance or whatever because it's all there -- the game has no heart. Not in a "WotC are evil corporate bastards" way. But in a "think with your head, not with your heart" kinda way -- it rewards intelligence, not emotion in play.

Get it? Got it? Good.

Hero Wars would PROBABLY be your best bet re: published fantasy games. But of course, I had to tempt the Fates and work on my own fantasy game system.

It's really basic -- I might use this system for other games I'm working on (different genre than "fantasy," no elves, etc., but it's the same exact feel).

Races? Check. LotR obviously incorporates various races that are quite different than one another. Classes? Nope. There's no reason to bust people up into arbitrary classes like D&D does. Forgive me, but it's not "realistic." Therefore, people are good at what they are good at, not what their profession says they should be good at (if that makes any sense).

What caught in my craw most about the movie was the Moria scene and especially the differences in fighting styles of the Fellowship's members...especially Gimli (brute strength, emotion, chaos) and Legolas (cool detachment, silence, pragmatism). To Gimli, it was personal. Legolas just had a matter-of-fact attitude (not that he didn't care, just that he focused on the task at hand to the exclusion of all else).

Okay, how to DO it using a game system.

Picture a pile o' dice. What Gimli does is pick up a handful of the highest-rolled dice and slam an opponent with them. Legolas on the other hand, he picks and chooses dice...very selective and methodical. Then it hit me.

There are only three attributes:

Strength (embodied by Gimli)
Skill (embodied by Legolas)
Luck (embodied by Frodo)

Each attribute affects how that character (ie: you, the player) sees his dice.

Your character has 10 points to spread between those three attributes.

When the battle scene starts, you roll a handful of six-sided dice (we'll say 10 dice for now). Your opponent does the same. Then you both shove dice at one another, trying to "overpower" the other guy. Like, you roll a bunch of dice:

1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6

And you use a 6 -- six points of damage. Your opponent uses his (only) 6 to block the attack. Blah blah keep going until you run out of dice. But wait, there's more...

Your STRENGTH rating is the number of dice you can use for any one attack.

I have a Strength of 4...so I could add 4 of those dice together for one huge attack.

Your SKILL rating is the number of attacks you can make on your turn.

I have a Skill of 3, so I could make three separate attacks (in conjuction with my Strength rating, I could make 2 attacks using 2 dice and 1 attack using 1 die, or whatever).

Your LUCK rating is the number of extra dice you add to the initial roll.

I have a Luck of 3, so I add three more dice to my roll (giving me 13 dice to work with during the fight).

Your Race gives you bonuses (Dwarves get +1 Strength and +1 Skill when using Axes, Elves get +1 Skill and +1 Skill when using Bows, Hobbits get +1 Luck and +1 Skill when defending against attacks). Frodo's Mithril shirt gives him a Luck bonus.

I also use the dreaded Hit Location for this (yikes!). Each number you can roll corresponds with a hit location:

1- left leg
2- right leg
3- left arm
4- right arm
5- stomach, chest
6- neck, head

When you make an attack where damage "gets through" defense, you roll a die and bam, there's your damage. Each point of damage subtracts a die roll from your pool of dice. So if I take 1 point to the Head, I lose a 6 (if I have one) from my dice.

If you sacrifice one of your own dice (when you attack), you can use that die to determine the hit location (it's an aimed attack, effectively).

You can also double-team an opponent by sharing dice, assisting with defense or using a die of your own to declare a hit location on an emeny (basically, setting your opponent up to be gut-shot by your buddy, or whatever).

It's not done, but that's the start of it. Now, I await judgement by you lot.

- J

Special thanks to Mearls (for the initial idea) and my girlfriend Rebecca (for valuable assistance).

[James V. West]

First, tell me if I'm reading this right.

Let's say we're playing the tomb scene in Moria. Do you roll one big batch of dice for the whole combat and start the process of shoving dice at the opponent? Would there be a second roll? I assume there would be if the oppenent lived through the first wave.

This is interesting in a few ways. First, it seems to eliminate some of the more long-standing "realistic" combat traditions like initiative and hit points. And rounds, it seems.

So if Gimli has Str 4, he could possibly slam the cave troll twice if his Skill were at least 2, right? No more than twice because there are only 10 dice (plus luck)?

Am I on track so far?

Wether or not it would work and flow well I can't possibly say until I try it, but the concept is awesome! I love pool mechanics. This one strikes me as being fierce and fast when it needs to be, but slow and methodical when that is in line. Good deal.

About classes. I have the same problems with classes as most people do. Too limiting. Yet classes represent archetypes and archetypes are life-lines or hard-wires to characterization. When you say "I'm a wizard" people automatically know what you mean, and *you* know what it means. The same goes for warriors and for woodsmen and all that. So I've been thinking a lot about classes and ways to use them more effectively.

Not that your idea needs them. Just pointing out what I do like about them. LotR is, of course, the basis for DnD classes, so it makes sense to use them from that perspective. Looking at the party who entered Moria, you have all the classes of the basic DnD game, sans the cleric and the thief which were probabaly inspired by other works like those of Fritz Leiber.

I like your use of three stats. They get the job done. However, how would this system work in non-combat scenes? Does Strength apply only to raw physical power, or does it have a broader range of applications? For example, Galadriel is undoubtedly powerful. Would she rank high in Stregth because of her mystical might? Can Stregth be a measure of will, "sticktoitiveness"?

Perhaps a bit of fortune-in-the-middle approach. Name your general intent, then roll. Thus if Galadriel is using Strength (as in inner strength) to resist the Ring's tempation, she would use her dice in that fashion. I can't see her bashing cave trolls like Gimli.

Am I getting this, Jared?

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Let's say we're playing the tomb scene in Moria. Do you roll one big batch of dice for the whole combat and start the process of shoving dice at the opponent? Would there be a second roll? I assume there would be if the oppenent lived through the first wave.

Yes. Essentially, one roll to rules them all, one roll to bind them (hah!). Bad guys also get a roll but ye olde GM would probably just say, "Okay, the bad guys just have one big-ass die pool."

So if Gimli has Str 4, he could possibly slam the cave troll twice if his Skill were at least 2, right? No more than twice because there are only 10 dice (plus luck)?

Yeah. I imagined it like this. Gimli has low luck, medium-low skill (bonus with an axe though!) and high-ish strength. In the cave troll fight, he can chuck an axe at an orc coming at him (using a couple dice), then mete out some serious punishment with his remaining actions.

Wether or not it would work and flow well I can't possibly say until I try it, but the concept is awesome! I love pool mechanics. This one strikes me as being fierce and fast when it needs to be, but slow and methodical when that is in line. Good deal.

I credit Mike Mearls with this idea, although I tacked on how it actually works. So, go Mearls!

About classes. I have the same problems with classes as most people do. Too limiting. Yet classes represent archetypes and archetypes are life-lines or hard-wires to characterization. When you say "I'm a wizard" people automatically know what you mean, and *you* know what it means. The same goes for warriors and for woodsmen and all that. So I've been thinking a lot about classes and ways to use them more effectively.

It's great for D&D because you're the sum of your abilities (a laundry-list of benefits and penalties). In a game like this one (the LotR inspired thing), you're whatever you want to be. You are not defined by your abilities...they're just used like tools --extensions of what you choose to do (if that makes any sense...I wanted to die mechanics to "feel" like you're using different weapons without resorting to weapon-is-defined-by-damage-and-other-modifiers like in D&D).

I like your use of three stats. They get the job done. However, how would this system work in non-combat scenes? Does Strength apply only to raw physical power, or does it have a broader range of applications? For example, Galadriel is undoubtedly powerful. Would she rank high in Stregth because of her mystical might? Can Stregth be a measure of will, "sticktoitiveness"?

Galadriel isn't a character. She's outside the scope of the rules, which is to present "dudes who get in there and kick ass" in a cool way. Strength could easily be called Stamina or Physical or whatever. The word is just shorthand...let's change it to "Attribute A." So what Attribute A does is let you add a bunch of dice together. This means you could take a 5 and a 1 and use them to declare a head shot. Whatever. So it's NOT really Strength in the classic RPG meaning.

Perhaps a bit of fortune-in-the-middle approach. Name your general intent, then roll. Thus if Galadriel is using Strength (as in inner strength) to resist the Ring's tempation, she would use her dice in that fashion. I can't see her bashing cave trolls like Gimli.

I wouldn't ever have Galadriel roll. I also wouldn't have Boromir roll to resist the ring. Either his player says yea or nay...what happens NEXT (him trying to wrest it free from Frodo) might require a die roll, maybe not.

One thing I neglected to mention is skills and virtues. Everyone has the same basic skills (I'll list them later...there's like, 8 or something), but the names of those skills could change (Ranged combat: Gimli throws axes, Legolas shoots arrows...Lore: Aragorn knows the woods, Gandalf knows ancient history...etc.). There are no skill points, either you know something or you don't.

Virtues are little metagamey things. Like courage, honor, friendship, yaddah yaddah.

Now I must go see The Film again! :smile:

[Ian O'Rourke]

I love 'good' fantasy stuff, and the Lord of the Rings film embodies that for me - but I had the same problem - not system available does that well. I don't think so anyway.

As a result, this is of great interest. Keep going.

[Mytholder]

This is not a laboured pun.

I suggest you add "Will" and "Grace" as the two virtues to the system. Will is basically the character's inner resolve. It's used to resist temptation (i.e. the Ring, Saruman's voice, etc) and can be used to add a bonus dice to any pool at the cost of a point of will. Spent Will is restored by resting at a Haven like Lorien.

Grace is supposed to reflect the fundamentally Christian morality of LOTR. Characters don't start will any grace, but earn it by acts of mercy and sacrifice. The twist is that you can spend Grace to give *other* characters a reroll. The two examples of Grace earned in the books would be when Gandalf sacrifices himself to stop the Balrog, and when Frodo refuses to kill Gollum at Emyn Muil. Gandalf spends his point of Grace to give Frodo a Will reroll at Amon Hen. Frodo probably spends his point to keep Sam going at Cirith Ungol.

[ravensron]

Despite D&D's class-abuse, turning the game (as Jared points out) into a mental exercise of "how do I tweak the dice?" I think classes reflect reality better than a lot of other game systems.  Fact is, "class" is how we define ourselves in the real world; if someone asks me what I am or what I do, I'm an "attorney" not a guy who is married, and is passionate about rpgs and can ride a bicycle and incidentally can read and write well enough to practice law.
And, having a class there are various skills that go along with that.  And, for practical purposes, it doesn't matter if I have differing abilities in the different skills.  Some people are better at some things some at other things (E.g. some baseball players are excellent hitters but only so-so fielders), but overall you have a "rating" or an "ability" or a "level" in your chosen profession which is the sum total of your skills and abilities and "attributes."  

I do like the idea of applying attributes in different ways to the same roll.  

[Paul Czege]

Hey Ron,

Fact is, "class" is how we define ourselves in the real world; if someone asks me what I am or what I do, I'm an "attorney" not a guy who is married, and is passionate about rpgs and can ride a bicycle and incidentally can read and write well enough to practice law.

Back when I was recent college graduate, ten or so years ago, I started to notice something interesting at social gatherings. If a guy walked up to another guy he maybe knew peripherally, perhaps they'd gone to college together, or known each other in high school, the conversation always started with a question like, "So, what do you do?" or "You still working at Ford?"

If a woman walked up to another woman under similar circumstances, the conversation would start with questions like, "So, how long have you known Susie?" or "Are you still dating Steve?"

It's hardly conclusive evidence, but perhaps men tend to define themselves by their "class" and women tend to define themselves by their relationships?

Paul

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Well, I don't have a job, so...

Anyway.

This is not a Lord of the Rings game -- it's merely an idea for a system that could handle a Moria-esque scene while not becoming a series of "I hit. I miss."

I had more to say but I'm sick.

[Bankuei]

Great idea, I like that the difference in strategies that can be used for any given scene.  Actually, now that I've watched the movie, although I knew D&D to be heavily influenced by it, I didn't think how much it straight ripped without any improvement from LOTR.  It seems that the Ranger class was made SOLELY from Strider(two weapons, kinda woodsy), since I have never seen why rangers should use two weapons...

I've also wondered about how to make a mechanic that reflects multiple attacks without doing a back and forth tennis match of die rolling.  Having a martial arts background, I find it hard to represent the a realistic view of combat, since it seems that most games that try give you a gigantic list of techniques(aka the spell list for fighters), that doesn't really seem to make a solid system.  The technique/magic power/ability/spell list always seemed like a cheap patch to a system, not like a integral and well built idea.

I'll be happy to see where you take this.  Would you apply this type of strategy to other things than combat?  

Bankuei

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Ideally, I see the game as being played with metric buttloads of dice. Like, 50 dice for each player.

And that's all you get. So you roll them all and then pick and choose.

The scout uses a 5 and a 6 (which equals 11) on her perception check, beating the 7 of the ambushing band of orcs. We see them and engage them in battle. I use my two actions (Skill 2) to loan two 6's to the scout -- who uses those 6's to target a duo of orcs right in the head. She pumps two 5's in each (for 10 pts of damage, each). The GM decides to save his dice so the orcs die, messily (six points in the head or chest is lethal).

That's how it could work. I'm not sure how the GM's die pool would work (if the GM's forces are represented by a single pool, what happens when individual bad guys are killed or injured?). Lots of thinking to do.

And as for as inner strength goes, I'm totally not concerned with that kind of dramatic inner conflict. BUT if I were to do something with it, I'd have the character make a Willpower check (spend a die from your pool and roll equal to or less than the number on the die). So, there's an unopposed roll mechanic for ya.

[John Wick]

Jared, you're brilliant.

That's all I wanted to say.


Take care,
John

[Bailywolf]

Hey, this die mechanic is trippy cool.  By your system, how would you envision the Bormir death scene playing out?

I could also see using it for a kung-fu martial arts game with apropriate trait names:

Power (for strength)
Technique (for Skill)
Chi (for luck)

[Jared A. Sorensen]

John, thank you very much. :smile:

Baileywolf,
Glad you like it. As for Boromir, he...

a) didn't roll well
b) used his dice to whup orcish ass, not realizing how powerful the Uruk Hai actually work
c) sacrificed his dice to help the Merry and Pippin escape (pyrrhic victory, that)

Choose one, or more.

Using it for Kung Fu would be neat...I'd call the attributes Chi, Tao and Fate. :smile:

[John Wick]

Using it for Kung Fu would be neat...I'd call the attributes Chi, Tao and Fate. :smile:

That actually works a lot better than the Strength and Skill combo. Like the nomenclature a lot.

[Paul Czege]

Could be quite an amazing marketing campaign:

Jared Sorensen's Kung Fu, inspired by Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings.

Paul

[ This Message was edited by: Paul Czege on 2001-12-28 22:47 ]