SA spending - come again?

[thomcat]

I am still amazed that I have read the use of SAs incorrectly.

It just seems that "every roll" must have a caveat of "once a combat round" or "once an exchange" or something.  Otherwise there is (almost) no penalty for splitting your dice pool for two (or more) actions.  In fact, the more times you split, the more bonus dice you get to roll.  Two attacks, buy initiative and a terrain roll, anyone?

Speaking of which, is the minimum "split" dice one?  Otherwise you could just let your SAs handle a terrain roll or the like, and that (also) just seems wrong.

                                      --Thom

And to think I just got the hang of the idea of a terrain roll...

[kenjib]

Hello fellow Seattlite.  Check out this still-active thread:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10276

[bergh]

Terrain rolls.....i prefer as GM/Scenechal to just deem whats is right, but i like that the players have to "put away" dices to roll on it. but then again thats just more terrain rolls.

anyway how do you use it?

i can't see how you can roll against any realistic table system, when fx. surrounded by a group of goblins alle with long spears, some players might claim that they have the RIGHTS to roll on it to see if they only gets to fight one opponent.

i think i have misunderstood the whole idea of terrain rolls, so please tell me how you use it?

[thomcat]

I think terrain rules are used to replace the GM "decision dice" (what was that from, Over the Edge?  The Fantasy Trip?).

The beauty of the TROS system is that the "players" get to decide how important that decision is to them, i.e. how many dice do they want to use to make sure they make a given terrain roll.  These dice come from their pool (combat, missile, sorcery) and can limit the success of their other actions.

This is why the "use SAs for every roll" seems unbalancing to me.  The player can just throw a single dice at a terrain roll, and let any firing SAs cover the rest.  The beauty is covered by a shabby curtain...

[Valamir]

when fx. surrounded by a group of goblins alle with long spears, some players might claim that they have the RIGHTS to roll on it to see if they only gets to fight one opponent.

Yes that is exactly right.  They do have the right to roll to see if they get to only face one, because a real fighter could absolutely do this.  Now the difficulty for more than 5 opponents is starting to get pretty steep, so its in no way certain and likely quite expensive but it is possible.

You have to purge the mental image that gets reinforced through minis play that combat consists of one guy standing still while 4 goblins get to take their turns poking at him.

In reality that one guy is going to be all over the place.  There's a reason why you MUST move 1/2 your movement every round.  He's going to be moving, the goblins are going to be trying to chase him, he's going to be getting them tied up with each other and use one goblin to block another.
(if you're a fan of basketball at all, its basically like setting a pick and roll, but using one of them to set the pick for you).

So yeah.  The player is entitled to a roll, and if they pull it off they manage it.  If not they don't.

[Bankuei]

Hi guys,

Perhaps a useful perceptual shift regarding SAs is instead of looking at it as "Elegant combat system plus SAs" try "SA system, that has this nifty combat engine attached".  It's like an action movie, where ability is known to soar and fall for no plausible reason other than everything is on the line.

Chris

[Bob McNamee]

Just make sure that those SA's actually do apply to the situation.

[thomcat]

Yes, I get that SA dice are for cinematic effect, character goals, and role playing.

What I don't like is that they can be re-spent for every roll in a combat round.  Splitting your pool becomes a bonus, not a penalty.  That reflects the opposite of "real life", and so creates cognitive dissonance.

Perhaps it's the "re-spent" thing that I'm reading wrong.

Book One outlined a number of ways to use your S.A. Those points, though they have limited use during each session, are not lost. They return at the beginning of the next session in the same quantity that the last session ended with.

If you can only spend each given SA dice once during a session, then sure, spend it on whatever roll you choose.  There's now no bonus for splitting a pool, because you won't be able to re-spend those dice until the next session.

Or am I completely off base?[/quote]

[Tash]

My understanding is that SAs can be applied to any non combat roll, but in combat they add to your total CP for a round, not each roll.

[Lance D. Allen]

My understanding is that SAs can be applied to any non combat roll, but in combat they add to your total CP for a round, not each roll.

This is still in contention. Some groups do it differently.

By the by, Luck is the only SA which is, by the rules, restricted to once a session. The others apply in any situation that the Seneschal and player agree they do, for as many rounds/actions as the Seneschal dictates.

[Alan]

Hi all,

While the useage may be in contention, the rules are actually quite clear.  Just read TROS p9 and 10.  Every Spiritual Attribute category says "... may be added to any roll ... "  Nowhere does it say anything about adding to pools.

The only confusion lies under Destiny, which says "Any time an important event inthe character's destiny comes to a head, these dice may be divvied up and added to any number of rolls, refreshing every round, as long as the Seneschal says so."

That sure sounds like Destiny dice must be split between rolls during a combat round.

Of course, of the five other SA descriptions contain language like that, so it seems to be an exception rather than the rule.

Given that five out of six SAs were explicitly written to apply to "any roll" and the fact that the game designer himself has repeatedly confirmed that all SAs should be used on every roll while activated, I don't see any doubt as to the intention of the rules.

Now if you want to debate whether this rule should be changed - will that's another issue.  Adding 8 or 10 SA dice to a skill roll can make the character's stats completely inconsequential, likewise it doesn't seem to make sense to add SAs to Terrain Rolls (unless we institute opposed Terrain rolls) - and Ralph has made a good argument that SAs on every roll can dilute the importance maneuver choices in combat to nearly nil.

I don't see this as contention, though, only a style choice (and a design choice, if Jake decides to change the rules so SAs add to pools instead of rolls.)

[Tash]

Let me guess...they'll be something about this in the Flower of Battle?

I have to agree that allowing SAs to add to ever roll in combat is kinda silly, its almost on the same order as the "Bag of rats" trick in 3rd edition D&D.

[thomcat]

And yes, I think there are bones of contention.  But let's summarize:

* Any use of an SA is at the Seneschal's discretion
* SAs can be used on any roll
* The Luck SA has a stated "per session" use limit
* The Destiny SA refreshes each round in combat
* Other SAs refresh at the Seneschal's whimsy, or once per session

There are good arguments both for and against adding an SA to your pool against a given opponent.  This would give the SA bonus each round, not just once.  Depends on the type of game you are running, I suppose.

What confused me from other threads was "25 dice firing" and "add them to every roll" which would clearly unbalance combat maneuvers.  I think that refreshing any SAs on a per-round basis would probably do the same.
A guy with "25 dice firing --- once" had better have one really good maneuver up his sleeve...

In essence, it's the REFRESH rate that is the difference between our various games.  I'm fine with that, but I would love to see "official" suggestions.

[Alan]

Hi Thom,

Yes, it's the refresh rate that's inconsistent from the rule book.  As far as designer intent in that area goes, we can only rely on what Jake has said in these forums.  He has said that all SAs should be used the same way:

- SAs add to every roll
- they do not deplete and so don't need to refresh
- Once activated, SAs are applicable throughout a combat.
- the only exception is Luck, for which individual points can only be used once a session.

[Brian Leybourne]

Guys, the answer is that it works both ways.

If you want to strictly add SA's to every single roll, all power to you.
If you want to add them to CP at the start of each round, that's cool too.

There are plusses and minuses for each way, but neither is disallowed by the rules.

For the record, I add it to pools in every case. For skill rolls or whatever, that turns out as every roll. For combat and spells, that turns out as once per round/per spell. In all cases you have a bunch of dice, you add SA's to that bunch, and then you roll them all or split them across several related rolls. That's how *I* do it, but it's not a rule, just my preference.

Either way is "offically ok", it comes down to personal preference. Adding them to every roll increases the importance of SA's and decreases the importance of other skills and attributes (more Narr than Sim). Adding them to pools does the opposite (more Sim than Narr). It just depends on what you want out of the game.

Brian.