Avant-Gardeism and Forge Design

[Sean]

Here's the thing:

1) Many of the concepts here are general, robust, and applicable to a wide variety of styles of gaming. Many of the ideas in the games produced here are usable in decidedly mainstream, 'been there done that' sorts of genre. Ditto with the theories.

2) There are a hell of a lot of gamers out there who are happy with 'fantasy', 'vampires' and these other broad, 'generic' labels onto which they can project their own personal fantasy as if it were a broadly shared thing. (Actually, the illusion that it is broadly shared, and the conversational expectations generated thereby, is a pragmatically fundamental and (I would argue) metaphysically important feature of human communication. But I digress.)

3) The Forge has indisputably been a source of successful design, and is getting better and better known as time goes on.

4) One doesn't have to be at all concerned with extending the boundaries of what's possible in gaming to have suffered from frustration in playing a system like D&D (any version), Vampire, Call of Cthulhu, etc. And therefore to want to design a 'better' version of the same game.

5) Therefore, it stands to reason that as time goes on the Forge is going to attract more and more gamers who are very interested in design, in GNS and other matters of role-playing theory, in learning about what people are up to here, and all kinds of other stuff, who aren't necessarily 'avant-garde' in their overall orientation towards gaming, as many of the prominent members of this site are and have been.

6) I think that this is already happening, at an ever-increasing pace, and is leading to at least one important cultural dimension of the issues explored in Scott Knipe's thread in this same forum, especially in the most recent exchange between Dav and Mike. The theory and design insights are continuing to move along, but they are increasingly being sought out by people whose purposes are not particularly in line with those of 'punk' or 'avant-garde' designers.

------------------------

What to do about it? There are some people who will not be convinced to adopt avant-garde values but who will be attracted to successful theory, put towards 'traditional' ends.

[coxcomb]

While some of the folks here promote "avant-garde" concepts, I don't think that it is universal. Seems to me like plenty of folks are talking about games that are "better mousetrap" designs--and thats great.

What I think makes the Forge great is that no matter what game you are working on the people here treat your ideas with respect and give you the best advice and encouragement that they can.

Diversity is good.

[Sean]

I tend to feel that the site is on the whole supportive of everyone too. But I have noticed certain tensions along these lines and I think they are part of what was at stake in the discussions in Scott's thread. I just thought it might be useful for focus to try to state the thing differently and see what people said about it.

[coxcomb]

I guess I just feel that it is only a few people that have extreme views one way or the other.

[ADGConscience]

Those with "avant-garde" values often forget there needs to be a garde for them to be avant.

But even the airy-fairy, ultimately useless/unplayable designs are scrap metal for the Forge.

Many of us are "traditional," but want to shift the paradigm of gaming and make a Freudian grab for power from the Daddy, Gygax.