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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 65 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: Tell me what's wrong with gay marriage  (Read 12223 times)
joshua neff
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Posts: 949


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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2005, 05:02:42 PM »

Quote from: xenopulse
Quote
It is a great thing to be married, isn't it?


It's wonderful. Any two people who love each other should be allowed to experience it :)


I agree. In fact, the only problem I have with being married is this: the fact that any two people who love each other and are committed to each other cannot get married devalues my marriage. If everybody and anybody can't sit with me in the front of the bus and drink from the same water fountain as I do, my life is lessened.
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--josh

"You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes
GB Steve
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Posts: 429


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« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2005, 12:23:35 AM »

Quote from: joshua neff
I agree. In fact, the only problem I have with being married is this: the fact that any two people who love each other and are committed to each other cannot get married devalues my marriage. If everybody and anybody can't sit with me in the front of the bus and drink from the same water fountain as I do, my life is lessened.

I'm with you there. Many of the arguments that are put forward (the rational ones, not the ones that just refer to bits of the Bible), founder on the fact that many heterosexual marriages have the same foundation as gay ones. My wife and I certainly didn't get married to have children, we married so that society recognises the commitment that we have made to each other and so that our friends and family can celebrate this commitment. I'm happy for anyone to have that (anyone who can make such a commitment that is).
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James Holloway
Member

Posts: 372


« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2005, 01:02:06 AM »

Quote from: Vaxalon
James, I'd be curious what you think about my idea of divorcing (heh.  divorcing) the secular legal contract from the marriage sacrament.

I'm sure it's just all a terrible, terrible coincidence that nobody started to care about that idea before the idea of marrying same-sex couples came up.

In addition to which, this happens already. People are already married without a religious ceremony. Religions already refuse to marry people who can be legally married. Most religions won't marry a couple without the legal form, that's really the big thing. But if you want religion to get out of the marriage business, that's cool. It's essentially a civil ritual, independent of the religious content.
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Vaxalon
Member

Posts: 1619


« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2005, 01:46:24 AM »

People also get married in a religious ceremony that isn't recognized by the government.

What it boils down to, to me, is that the reasons the government fails to accord same-sex couples the same rights as hetero couples is a religious one... which violates the establishment clause of the constitution.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
Victor Gijsbers
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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Posts: 390


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« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2005, 02:10:21 AM »

Gay marriage is legal here in the Netherlands, and as far as I'm aware not even the major conservative party has any wish to abolish it. I'm also unaware of a break-down of society that has resulted from gay-marriage's legality, so it may be safe to postulate that no such thing has happened.
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James Holloway
Member

Posts: 372


« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2005, 03:48:53 AM »

Quote from: Vaxalon
People also get married in a religious ceremony that isn't recognized by the government.

What it boils down to, to me, is that the reasons the government fails to accord same-sex couples the same rights as hetero couples is a religious one... which violates the establishment clause of the constitution.

No one gets married in a religious ceremony not recognized by the government -- or at least not "married" in the legal sense. Not "married" where you could, for instance, file a joint tax return. And that's the kind of married we're talking about here. If it were just a question of religious ceremonies, no one would care.

The reason that the government won't permit gay marriage is the exact same reason they won't remove all governmental involvement in marriage:

a) they don't want to, because they hate gays too. And
b) they couldn't even if they did, because it would be the political equivalent of putting a gun to their heads and pulling the trigger.
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pete_darby
Member

Posts: 537

Will dance with porridge down pants for food.


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« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2005, 04:32:07 AM »

Quote from: James Holloway

b) they couldn't even if they did, because it would be the political equivalent of putting a gun to their heads and pulling the trigger.


Or would it? You see, neither of the mainstream US political parties have tried anything that can possibly be seen as socially liberal for a long, long time, because they have The Fear that they'll lose support. Because that's what their present power base, the corporate interests, the neo-cons tell them, that they're the only ones who matter, the only ones who can keep them in power.

And because both sides pander to the same interests, any other interests become disenfranchised and disenchanted with the political process (heaven* knows I am).

I'm beginning to think a radical democrat could garner a hell of a lot of support, but unless Oprah runs for Pres, we ain't gonna see it.

Because, you know, it could lead to the US becoming the sink-hole of depravity that is the Netherlands, with it's liberal laws, vibrant economy...

*non-denom
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Pete Darby
Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 10459


« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2005, 06:29:48 AM »

Quote from: GreatWolf
"Morpheus, not everyone believes what you believe!"

"My beliefs do not require that they do."
--Lock and Morpheus, Matrix Reloaded
This is the same logic by which Islamic fundamentalists attack the US. There will be no peace until civil society understands that we cannot use force of any sort, including government, to impress our ideals upon one another.

God created game theory too.

Mike
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C. Edwards
Member

Posts: 558

savage / sublime


« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2005, 06:33:29 AM »

Mike,

You damn hippie.


-Chris
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Andrew Morris
Member

Posts: 1233


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« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2005, 07:02:19 AM »

Quote from: James Holloway
In addition to which, this happens already. People are already married without a religious ceremony. [...] It's essentially a civil ritual, independent of the religious content.

Yup, I was married by the mayor of the town where I lived at the time. Religion had nothing to do with it.

Strangely enough, I was having a conversation with my sister on this very topic not too long ago. She said something that really stuck with me: "You know, gay marriage is going to be the civil rights issue for our generation. Just like we're shocked that interracial couples couldn't get married in our parent's generation, our kids will have the same reaction because a same-sex couple couldn't get married in ours."

Personally, I'm on board with that. If two men or two women want to get married, I'm cool with it. It doesn't take anything away from me. Hell, if two men and two women all want to get married to each other, I'm fine with that as well. I've yet to hear a logical argument against gay marriage.
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Vaxalon
Member

Posts: 1619


« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2005, 07:19:16 AM »

I think we, as a nation, need to decide whether we are going to be a secular society, or a religious one, and if we're going to be religious, which religion is going to be in charge.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
James Holloway
Member

Posts: 372


« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2005, 07:46:15 AM »

Quote from: Vaxalon
I think we, as a nation, need to decide whether we are going to be a secular society, or a religious one, and if we're going to be religious, which religion is going to be in charge.

Good luck with that.
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Vaxalon
Member

Posts: 1619


« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2005, 07:51:13 AM »

We'll need it.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
Larry L.
Member

Posts: 616

aka Miskatonic


« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2005, 07:58:52 AM »

Gay marriage should be illegal because that would endorse committed, monogamous relationships between homosexuals. I want my homosexuals flamingly promiscuous, dammit!

Um, seriously though... I'm pretty much with Vaxalon on this one. Government should get out of the marriage business, create some sort of legal union with the current boons of marriage, and let religions make the call on "marriage."

Really, I want heterosexual domestic partner benefits.
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member

Posts: 10459


« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2005, 08:11:32 AM »

Quote from: C. Edwards
You damn hippie.
No, statistician and game theorist. ;-)

Mike
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-Get your indie game fix online.
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