Why are Footman's pick and the spike on a Warhammer=ATN6?

[Edge]

The main reason you keep saying that it should be ATN 7 is the hitting plate armour example.  But what happens if you hit someone without any armour? Also the footmans pick was invented (so i believe) for attacking guuys in full plate so i imagine it could do this very well.  It is pretty damn easy to hit someone with a hammer.  Nice light weapon, easily manoeuvrable but hey not very good at parrying (hence the high DTN)
I have found that it is a very cool weapon to use and by no way limit its Stats as a DM.

I also agree with the social implications stated above and play them the same way.  You see a guy wearing a footmans pick or warhammer at his belt he only wants to do one thing... bash your skull in :)

[bergh]

hello! im not trying so say that the "hammerhead" of a warhammer should be changed! only the "pick head" and the pick, anyway i can hear that im wrong about thinks.

But please a game master let the players look at the weapons, tell em to compare the warhammer against anything else, and then you got yourself a "warhammer" group! hehe.

[[MKF]Kapten]

I dont know how long it takes to put on a shield properly but I imagine it takes a while longer than grabbing a weapon. Even if this is only seconds, it can be crucial when ambushed. The sword has the advantage in this situation.

In my game at least those situations happens fairly often; the party is travelling on a road, they are sitting by the fire or are walking through town. Even though they are carrying their shields, sometimes they dont have the time to don them. In those circumstances do the swords really shine. When they are going up against non armored or lightly armed opponents the lack of armor penetration doesnt matter as much either; in those situations the sword is a good protection vs the maneuvers that negate the shield for defense.

This is balanced out when the party has time to deck up and prepare for a fight, especially against heavily armored opponents. Then mr Flailuser really shines.

I can imagine, though, that in a game with a lot of fights you can prepare for and with a lot of armors involved that the mass weapon and shield proficiency dominates. But it isnt that strange really considering that that's the situation those weapons were made for.

OTOH my intuition tells me that something is fishy when a weapon with two small business ends have the same ATN as a weapon with two big business ends and a point but then I have zero experience with medieval weapons so I cant say if it's correct or not.

[Edge]

Kapten the way i see it working is that ATN relates to how easy it is to hit someone with said weapon.  The pick is a fairly easy weapon to use, isn't to small and it is pretty light, the sword is a bit more unwieldy, bit heavier but it does have those big blades which counteract the negatives... this is how i see them having the same ATN

[BPetroff93]

Okay, I just did some checking on this, here goes:

I assume the impitus for this thread is a concern over a lack of game balance with the warhammer and pick, and the desire for that balance to be present.  However, it's already there!

One, Def target number for these weapons is 8, which is not that low.  Makes sense that to attack with a mass weapon is easy, but to defend is hard.

Two, the one thing that everyone seems to be missing is MANUVERS! The mass weapon and sheild proficiency is very limited.  The it has the same number of offensive manuvers as sword and sheild (4, bash and cut are mutually exclusive) and the only real tactical manuver has a higher activation cost.  It also has FAR fewer defensive manuvers.

All things being otherwise equal, good sword fighter will out manuver, bind, counter and just plain fuck up a warhammer fighter

[bergh]

Mass weapon and SHIELD.....haha

pick+shield are to powerfull a combo, even my players who are muchkins of the first degree, thing that it may be an error.

anyway, remeber that puncture damage it WAY more damage doing in the body then cuts, which also add to the abilitys of a pick/warhammer.

[BPetroff93]

I'm not sure I'm getting it here.  This still sounds balanced to me.  I'll go run some combat simulations this weekend, then I shall return with some actual evidence :)

[Jaeger]

Yes, in a battle I think shield + mass weapoin is probably the best choice.

But, what kind of campaign are you running that the PC's are always walking around with a shield handy???

In all the campaigns I've been in, pick/hammer +shield has been the least selected Prof. Becuase without the shield, the PC has very limited defensive options.

  We do so much sneaking, climbing, swimming, and general running around, that for a PC to always be carrying his shield would be a hinderance.

  Shields are just like other kinds of armor - they were meant for fighting battles. Walking around town all day with a shield or chainmail shirt will attract a lot of undue attention.
 
    Carrying a weapon for defense against riffraff is one thing, walking around town like your about to lay siege to the castle is usually not acceptable on an everyday basis.

    Now if your campaign centres on a series of wars or pitched battles, fine. But if your PC's are running around town getting involved in intrige, thievery, and local politics, as a GM I would seriously ask some hard questions of a player who wants to carry his shield around with him everywhere.

[BPetroff93]

I just ran 11 combats on the simulator.  Both combatants were identical except for equiptment.  In all sets I did my best to make each combatant win.

8 sets were with both wearing pot helms, chain and leather limbs.  One fighter had a warhammer and small sheild, the other a cut&thrust sword and dagger.  5 wins by the sword fighter, usually quite decisive, by lowering the warhammer's CP pool and then feinting and thrusting.  3 wins by the warhammer fighter, usually very aggressive repeated strikes which wore down the swordsman by damage and then finished him off.  These combats were all run with starting CP pools at 10.

3 sets with both in full plate, footmans pick& large sheild and 2handed bastard sword  It was very hard for either opponant to do any real damage.  One win by the pickman and two that were a simple matter of fatigue.  In which case the swordsman would have technically won as he had a slightly higher CP total due to the fact that he did not have a sheild.

I admit that this is by no means a comprehensive test, but it does support my earlier argument that the weapons are balanced AS IS.  If munchkin players are stomping on every swordsman out there by using a warhammer or pick you are doing something wrong.