Gamefest Milwaukee and Gamefest Richmond

[Tigger]

[Dav]

Hey Tigger:

I just wanted to ask for a bit more information regarding the following clause:

"1. Exhibition of Products , Materials & Themes - All exhibition of products, materials, advertising, documents, presentations
must be tasteful and none offensive deemed so by ACS Gamefest. Products depicting lurid scenes or excessive gore, violent, gruesome,
sexual crimes, sadism, masochism, exhibitionism, lust, filth, perverted, sexually explicit, nudity, pornographic, graphic
bloodshed, or offensive in any manner are unacceptable. Any promotional items, Materials, displays, products, or acts of this type is
strictly prohibited and will not be tolerated. No such items will be sold, traded, advertised, or displayed. Exhibitors found to be in
noncompliance or that refuse to comply with this policy / rule will be removed from the Event without refund of monies paid."

Most of the product that my companies produce would easily be considered an R-rated product.  While artistic depiction of bloody mayhem may or may not be present in most products, is there any way that, rather than having clauses that include phrases such as "Products [that are]... offensive in any manner are unacceptable" threaten me with the loss of exhibitor space and cash?  Could I, perhaps, have a largely unmistakable sign saying "mature content, parents be warned!" or the like?  I've spoken to a few other companies about policies like this, and we chafe at them at GenCon, at GAMA, at Origins... how are we to deal with a maturing audience if we cannot confront maturing themes?

Thanks,
Dav

[Mike Holmes]

Daniel,

I attended Gamefest in Milwaukee last year, and would like to say that I think it has a lot of potential. Attendance seemed very sparse, but I too attributed that to the timing - I myself had been at GenCon the week previous, and almost didn't come myself, therefore.

I think with the new date that you may well exceeed the 2000+ estimate by a great deal. A lot depends on getting the word out there. Hardly anybody I talked to knew about the convention. I heard about it from a freind of mine who was tapped to do a Shadowfist demo, meaning he had to be told by someone else...basically it was all word of mouth. Do you intend to advertise in a wider way this year? I think that you could definitely capture a large portion of the Milwaukee populace that used to attend GenCon if you did.

I would be very interested into discussing ways in which to promote an Indy manufacturers lead program within the conventions.  Organizing a track that encourages attendees to try experiencing new gaming products is exactly what we are here for.  I help you coordinate a program that draws more attention to your products and it also offers us additional events.

Can you expand on this? What sort of "program" are we talking about here? Just demos? Or do you have somthing more in mind?

Regards,
Mike

[Tigger]

[Tigger]

Hey Mike,

I’m glad to here you were able to join us for last year’s convention; I do hope you’ll be attending this year as well.  We’re very excited about the possibilities this year holds for us.  Your post contained two areas that I would like to discuss.  

First, you offered concerns about our advertising plan and program.  Well, obviously if you heard about us from word of mouth then something went right but we always need to do more.  Why don’t I describe the ways and areas where we have and will endeavor to spread the word about Gamefest?  We host ads for the convention in Knights of the Dinner Table, Dragon, Dungeon, and The Onion (Chicago, Milwaukee, and Minneapolis).  We strive to have our events included in listings within Scrye and White Dwarf.  We sponsor banners on Enworld and try to have the conventions listed on all possible convention calendars.  Gamefest is pushed by ad spots on Rock 104 and on local TV affiliates (sorry, don’t remember which ones at the moment).  Posters and fliers are sent to every known gaming retailer within 100+ miles of Milwaukee.  We work with a number of these retailers to include them as exhibitors to the convention and for support with events and promotion.  We also attend GenCon, Origins, DragonCon, and numerous local shows promoting Gamefest.  All that being said, there are bound to be additional avenues we have yet to tap and I encourage you to share your ideas as I am always willing to consider new thoughts.  Our limited budget does not allow us the opportunity to field all possible advertising options but we do try to take advantage of the widest array manageable.  

Secondly, you asked for further details about a possible Indy program within our show.  I was thinking that if we could get a number of the small press manufacturers to join us at the convention that we could build an almost “mini-con” within Gamefest.  All the participating manufacturers would submit event descriptions to me and I create a schedule that offers a wide selection of Indy events throughout the convention, aiming at offering all participants times during peak attendance yet trying to avoid everyone running their events on top of each other.  Each manufacturer agrees to reward players with a coupon worth an agreed upon value (say $2) that is redeemable at any of the participating manufacturer’s booths for reduced product in the total of their accumulated coupons; making it so attendees are encouraged to try numerous new games to collect the coupons.  Gamefest would then be willing to feature this program listing the events, program details, and participants within the program booklet and website to offer it additional exposure and attention, and provide free advertising to those companies involved.  I would love to hear your thoughts and ideas concerning this idea and how we might work together to expand upon it.  

Keep well,

Tigger

[jdagna]

For myself, I'm doing as much travelling for conventions as I can, which means I would need to find some local volunteers to show my game at any of the GameFest conventions.  I may have a few fans out there, but I'm not sure that I'd be able to set up someone with my own resources.

So that's one way in which you might be able to help.  If I offered an incentive to get volunteers to run my game at the convention (say, a free book), would you be able to help me find interested people?  

Likewise, I may or may not be able to find a vendor to carry the books there, so getting some help there would also make it more interesting.

[Mike Holmes]

First, you offered concerns about our advertising plan and program.  Well, obviously if you heard about us from word of mouth then something went right but we always need to do more.  Why don’t I describe the ways and areas where we have and will endeavor to spread the word about Gamefest?...

That's an impressive sounding array. Which leaves me wondering why it wasn't more effective. I guess we'll have to put it down to GenCon or something. Sure somebody in your program isn't embezzling? Just kidding.

I was thinking that if we could get a number of the small press manufacturers to join us at the convention that we could build an almost “mini-con” within Gamefest.

OK, now this sounds interesting. What would be optimal would be some sort of space for this sort of vendor. That is, the only way that indies can afford booths is to gang up together. Many vendors won't actually attend, instead relying on others to display their wares, in fact (Justin, for example). If we were to instead share a room or something, that might be optimal. The point being to colocate these vendors. I noted that space was something that you had plenty of, and if we can take advantage of that, it would be great.

That all said, there's a question of "ghettoization," a phenomenon that we'd want to avoid.

All the participating manufacturers would submit event descriptions to me and I create a schedule that offers a wide selection of Indy events throughout the convention, aiming at offering all participants times during peak attendance yet trying to avoid everyone running their events on top of each other.

Hmmm. Have you by chance read any of the posts on how we conduct demos? Frankly we (indies who participate in The Forge booth at GenCon) don't believe in scheduling, more or less, but in running demos as people present themselves (nearly all potential buyers are offered a demo). Using this method we end up doing far more demos than we would otherwise. Potential players who cannot play at the moment learn that they can play with us at any time, and come back to us when we are available.

Each manufacturer agrees to reward players with a coupon worth an agreed upon value (say $2) that is redeemable at any of the participating manufacturer’s booths for reduced product in the total of their accumulated coupons; making it so attendees are encouraged to try numerous new games to collect the coupons.

Hmm. I think this one is somewhat problematic. I think we'd get people playing six demos to buy their favorite $12 game for free. Note that some of our prices are very low. That's not to say that the exposure isn't a good thing, but I'm not sure if this would fly or not given indie economics. Comments from other potential sellers?

Gamefest would then be willing to feature this program listing the events, program details, and participants within the program booklet and website to offer it additional exposure and attention, and provide free advertising to those companies involved.

That's a very generous offer. I think that we'd be doing ourselves an injustice if we didn't pick up on your ideas here. I do think that there are some issues that need to be hashed out, but I'm sure that we can work something out.

Mike

[Tigger]

Justin,

Finding a way to attend every convention is an impossibility and I recognize that but I do encourage you to see if you can fit us into your schedule somehow.  The Gamefest Series of shows are excellent opportunities to meet new and existing fans and, let’s be realistic, no one can pitch and promote your product with the style and intensity as you.  You offer the best sampling of the product because you know it best and are the most passionate about what it has to offer; and I would certainly prefer my attendees to get the best taste possible so as to maximize the likelihood that they will rave about their experience with your game at my convention to all their friends.

That being said, all companies can not make it to all conventions.  I would suggest that you visit our Gamefest Yahoo lists,

Milwaukee- http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/GAMEFEST-MILWAUKEE/?yguid=24796042

Richmond- http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/GAMEFEST-RICHMOND/?yguid=24796042

and post your offer their and see if there are any takers.  The entire Gamefest team monitors the lists as well and will then forward your message to any prospective volunteers that we can think of that might not frequent the list.  I also can speak with our webmaster about the possibility of posting a volunteer request section on our soon to be launched redesigned website.  It would offer you the ability of reaching more demo runners and provide us with more events.

As for helping you find a vendor to sell product for you.  I believe it may be possible to arrange for such requests for sale on consignment.  Please email me with what you would be expecting and offering from a vendor and I’ll see if I can connect you with an interested party.  Let me know if you have any further questions.

Keep well,

Tigger

[Tigger]

Which leaves me wondering why it wasn't more effective. I guess we'll have to put it down to GenCon or something.  

Well as a whole I would have to say that's a matter of opinion.  A 1500 count for a first year convention the weekend after GenCon and the same weekend of the Chicago GameDays for GamesWorkshop (both of which were scheduled after we set our dates) is pretty impressive in our world.  :)

IOK, now this sounds interesting. What would be optimal would be some sort of space for this sort of vendor. That is, the only way that indies can afford booths is to gang up together.

Well I believe you'll find that our booth prices are quite reasonable for what we offer and we've tried to provide different options for varying price ranges.  We could try and arrange for those manufactures participating in the "Mini-Con" to be placed in the same area within the exhibitors hall.

Many vendors won't actually attend, instead relying on others to display their wares.

I was seeing this event as being featured for those manufactures attending the convention.  Asking vendors that are selling product on consignment to accept this program might be difficult.

That all said, there's a question of "ghettoization," a phenomenon that we'd want to avoid.

I believe if we market it as a featured event and build excitement and interest in the program that we can discourage and dissipate such perceptions.

Hmmm. Have you by chance read any of the posts on how we conduct demos? Frankly we (indies who participate in The Forge booth at GenCon) don't believe in scheduling, more or less, but in running demos as people present themselves (nearly all potential buyers are offered a demo). Using this method we end up doing far more demos than we would otherwise. Potential players who cannot play at the moment learn that they can play with us at any time, and come back to us when we are available.

I am not suggesting you stop running pickup demos.  These events featured within the "Mini-Con" though would be full length events that would receive posting in the convention schedule and specific reference in the write-up about the overall program.  I was not picturing the pickup demos being apart of the coupon/rewards program.

Hmm. I think this one is somewhat problematic. I think we'd get people playing six demos to buy their favorite $12 game for free. Note that some of our prices are very low. That's not to say that the exposure isn't a good thing, but I'm not sure if this would fly or not given indie economics. Comments from other potential sellers?

I believe that a gamer that specifically plays 6 full length Indy events without any interest in them to save $12 dollars on a product is few and far between.  An average full length event is 4hrs., he/she will have to put in 24hrs.  I'm betting they could get the book for free from you for that much volunteer time put in.

The idea would definitely need further development but I feel it has promise.

Tigger

[Mike Holmes]

Dan,

To be clear, the people at The Forge booth don't do "full-length" demos. None at all. There's evidence that such a demo is actually less effective than one impromptu demo at generating sales. Making the length less than useful. In any case, can you schedule demos in the exhibitor area (the exhibitor info seems to indicate that this is, in fact mandatory)? GenCon prohibits this (IIRC), so full-length demos have to be run away from the booth. Making it difficult to impossible for a one man show to do such a demo. In any case, would any personnel assigned to impromptu demos be allowed to get the free badges for demo personnel per the exhibitor's packet? Or does the 16 hour restriction mean that this many full-length demos have to be scheduled? Can we schedule a demo slot as "impromptu," meaning that the description would include that we'd be doing pickups for as long as the section lasted? See where I'm going with this?

Now, the all-impromptu model is one that works for GenCon. For a smaller con, maybe something else would make more sense. But I think that the issue is advertising. That is, if you make it known that you're running demos for anyone at any time, I think it's at least as effective as taking the same space  to schedule them. So doing as I suggest above might work. I may be wrong, however, so disabuse me of the notion if there's evidence to the contrary.

In any case, I wasn't denigrating last year's turn out, that number is certainly nothing to sneer at for a first time con. But I think you had a lot of space in anticipation of more people, and rightly so - I think there's a potential for a great deal more attendance. That's all I'm saying.

BTW, just curious, to what does the term "manufaturer" refer in the exhibitor information? I assume we don't count, but I'm just curious as to whom it does apply.

Last question, are the corner booths the same size as the normal ones? That is, given the requirement to get a normal booth with a corner one, how large would that be overall? Or is the corner cost merely attached onto the normal booth cost with no increase in space? It's not clear from any of your literature.

Mike

[Tigger]

The impromptu demo may work better for exhibitors yet the full events are what conventions need in order to provide attendees a well rounded event schedule with a number of options for play throughout the day.  I believe a balance of mostly impromptu demos surrounding a few full length events throughout the convention would satisfy what everyone is looking for in this program.
   
Demo scheduling is permitted in the Exhibitor’s hall.


Tigger

[DP]

there's a question of "ghettoization," a phenomenon that we'd want to avoid.

Seriously. And being ghettoized at an event that's mostly Living Greyhawk? Ghet-to. And, as the kids say these days, bootleg.

Dave

[Mike Holmes]

I'm not hep enough to get what you're saying there Dave. Could you clarify?

But in general, the ghettoization comment refers to the idea of putting all of the indie designers that apply off in some corner. It's not even the corner that matters, it's the co-location. The point being that what's optimal is for indie publishers to be able to have self-selected coalitions in a particular booth, say, but otherwise be located amidst everyone else.

That might sound contradictory. What we want is to be able to work together as a team with those who we deem fit, but not end up in some low rent district of the con. The simplest thing for us to do it to just band together in one very large booth. The question is one of the logistics there - can we get several booths together and make them into one (might just be a corner depending on what the definition is - I'm still a tad confused about that)? Will enough badges be available? Do you get "demo" badges by publisher, or by booth section you get? For example, if you get a corner, do you get the badges for two booths (the corner, and the normal booth that you have to purchase), or just one? If you slap three together would you get badges enough for three?

On that subject, if we were to list as a demo event something like:
"Try any game from pulisher X. Demos start at any time during the block."
Would that be considered a legitimate event? I've seen other blocks listed like this. We'd certainly be able to commit to handling as many people as listed in the book (and probably more).

Can demos be free, or must all events have a charge? See where I'm going with this? If we structure the description properly everyone is satisfied. You get a load of listings for events from us (one for each block that the exhibitor area is open, per publisher, or, heck, even game if you like). We get the advertising exposure from it, and get to essentially run the same way we always do.

Is there some solution like this that can be worked out? I've seen listings like this at other conventions, so I'm hoping that it's possible.

Mike

[Tigger]

I believe we can work out the location issue without much problem.

Badges are assigned per booth purchased.  If you secure two booths you will have access to four Exhibitor badges that offer Full Event badge privileges and entrance into the Exhibitor’s Hall about an hour before and after attendee hours for setup and restock.  Two Demo badges are available per booth purchased if needed but the only allow entrance into the Exhibitor’s Hall and to demo areas, they do not offer Full Event privileges.  If 16 hours of scheduled events are submitted then an additional Full Event badge can be offered to that event runner.

It has been my experience that attendees tend to ignore the listings for demo after demo after demo, looking for events that have intriguing descriptions and compelling game play.  Also listing numerous “Try a demo of game X” or the same generic description becomes repetitive and expensive to print, forcing us to simply reference the original entry which again loses attendee’s interest in the event.  

We don’t have set time slots like many conventions so we would need to list starting times for your events.  Pickup demos do not require event tickets but scheduled events do.

Tigger

[DP]

I'm not hep enough to get what you're saying there Dave. Could you clarify?

No.

But I will amplify. As Gamefest Richmond has traditionally been overwhelmingly dominated by RPGA events, specifically Living Greyhawk, it indicates to me that expending any resources to promote indie games is going to be an exercise in casting pearls before swine, moreso than at other gaming events.

That having been said, it looks like this Gamefest is broadening its range of events; I'm looking specifically at the Interactivities Ink. events (man, they're everywhere these days).

Given that equivocation, I think your ideas, Mike Holmes--if that's your real name--would maximize the resources of any indies that put out their shingle at that con.

[*]...self-selected coalitions in a particular booth, say, but otherwise be located amidst everyone else.

[*]...list as a demo event something like:
"Try any game from pulisher X. Demos start at any time during the block."[/list:u]

I think these are brilliant ideas.