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Started by Ron Edwards, May 09, 2004, 12:50:53 PM
QuoteIs the gameplay about the differences in age and sex?
QuoteIn Mongrel as written, I think the answer is no. The game is about "schemes of Houses and conflicts over resources... as well as conflicting Vows". Therefore, having differences mandated in character creation that do not pertain to the "schemes of Houses" is unnecessary and bad design.
Quote from: ValamirA society where lower class men are able to be more attractive then upper class men. Very bizarre indeed.How is it bad design to encorporate setting detail into game mechanics?
Quote from: ValamirI'm afraid I don't follow you.Can you define what you mean by about?How is it bad design to encorporate setting detail into game mechanics?I disagree. This is a high concept sim game. The game is about exploring the color of the setting. The schemes and conflicts are just convenient vehicles that allow the players to enjoy the scenery.
QuoteHere's my take so far: First, in terms of clarity, I appreciate Ralph's point that if one takes the time to crack open the game, play by the rules, and pay attention to the results, one will start to see how the game world of Mongrel is "supposed" to work. However, this is a Sim game, and it makes no sense to me, since the whole point of a Sim game is to have fun successfully simulate something, to have to figure out what the heck I'd be simulating instead of actively simulating the cool world Ron has apparently created. (Ron does cover this in the text, pointing out there'd be plenty of art and some color section --- but that doesn't change the fact that, as printed, as a GM I'd have to play out in my head the implications of the rules and create the proper color.)
QuoteSecond, if I'm not mistaken, the gender rules as they currently stand are pretty goofy.
QuoteAnd I may well be mistaken. However, if I'm not: since Social is capped if a player blows off the Strength/Beauty gender requirements, and Social is apparently the target value for lies againts the PC and such, the implication seems to be that it's easier to lie to a man in Mongrel if he's attractive (rather than strong), and easier to lie to a woman in Mongrel if she's strong (rather than beautiful). Yes? I'm not sure. But it seems it would tend that way.
QuoteNow, Ralph may yet have another brilliant exegesis on this matter waiting in the wings, and I'm looking forward to hearing it if he does, but so far there just seems something off about how Beauty and Social come into play.
Quote from: Christopher KubasikThird: The difference here, for me, between Mongrel and Eclipse on the blunt gender issue is what Walt brought up several times on the first Mech Gender thread: player choice. In Mongrel, at least, I can choose to be a tough ass woman or a male adonis. There are consequences, per the nature of society, but it can happen. (I'm not going to start the new thread on this, but the very appeal of RPGs often depends on fantasizing a new or better or different self -- to say to a man or a woman "You can't be the most beautiful person or strongest person on the planet because that's not real," seems to fly in the face of why some people 'really' play RPGs. I don't get it. But that might just be me.)The fact that players have a choice of taking a penalty or not, not because they want to play a man or woman, but because they want to be a strong man, a beatiful man, a strong woman, a beautiful woman, seems less knee-jerk annoying to me than Eclipse's actual manufacture of potential caps for men and women.
QuoteFinally, as always, why. Ben's answer on Eclipse was, "Well that's the way the world is." Ron's answer hasn't been delivered yet. Were' talking about a game where you can be some freakish borg mystic something or other who's mother was a spider-- and yet we're focusing on social status on men and women dependent on cultural assumtions.Now, it's important to note that in Eclipse, the assupmtions are universal across all cultures. In Mongrel the assumptions are specific to a freakish, closed system of three worlds. Thus, my knee jerk rejection of Eclipse because it says, "Every culture views beaty this way," wheres Mongrel says, "This culture is this way." I can accept that there's no Wonder Woman, Warrior Amazon Princess, on the worlds of Mongrel. What I can't accept is an RPG that says she can't exist anywhere.