Questions I already sent Ron when the Forge didn't like me..

[Nev the Deranged]

***
The Forge decided to be kind to me today, so I am able to ask these questions to the masses, so that Ron can attend to the myriad of other things I am sure he is occupied with in prepping for Con season.
***

I am still working on my Sorcerer for Dummies document... But I have run across a few questions.

1) How often may a demon attempt to regain Power after being Punished? (I refer to this as "brooding" as the demon is presumably either steaming over being rebuked or reconsidering it's actions... either way some kind of attitude adjustment is assumed to be taking place, right?)

2) I'm not entirely clear on what Humanity is rolled against in each ritual. This is what I have, correct me if I've got any wrong:
Contact: Humanity vs. Power (loss)
Summon: Humanity vs. Itself (loss)
Bind: Humanity vs. Power(?) (loss)
Contain/Punish: None
Banish: Humanity vs. Power (gain)

3) A demon in withdrawal from Need (or Binding, or Hosting) whose Power has been reduced to zero, now starts checking for Stamina loss daily, by rolling it's ORIGINAL Power vs. it's ORIGINAL Stamina, right? I lost your other reply to this, because I forgot to save it. D'oh.

4) Snap-shot Rituals only reduce the dice of the main score being used to 1, Humanity and any bonus dice remain in full effect (bonus dice obviously being at GM's discretion), correct?

5) It's not listed on the Rituals chart, but when Punishing, the demon gets to roll (Stamina+Binding), with losses coming off its Power, while when Banishing, the demon rolls (Power+Will+Binding), with losses meaning it goes Poof, yes?

6) On a related note, I assume Punishing an unBound demon would simply be vs. Stamina, and Banishing an unBound demon would simply be vs. (Power+Will).

7) In the case of the following rolls:
Abe - 9, 9, 9, 7, 2  and   Bob - 9, 9, 8, 4
Which of the following is true:
a) Abe's third 9 wins, giving him 1 victory over Bob's 8
b) Bob's 8 wins, giving him 1 victory over Abe's 7

8) Similarly, in the case of the following:
Cate - 8, 7, 7, 1  and  Dina - 8, 7, 2, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Cate's second 7 wins, with 1 victory over Dina's 2
b) Dina's 2 wins, with one victory over Cate's 1

9) And finally, in the case of
Ed - 10, 10, 10, 5, 4  and  Fran - 10, 4, 3, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Ed's second 10 wins, with 3 victories over Fran's 4
b) Ed's 5 wins, with 1 victory over Fran's 4

I know these may seem redundant, but I want to be very certain I understand the system before trying to run it, so it behooves me to cover all the angles.

Thanks in advance!

[Lxndr]

I don't know, off the top of my head, the answers to the rest of the questions, but:

7)  Abe's 3rd 9 wins, giving him 1 victory over Bob's 8
8)  Cate's 2nd 7 wins, with 1 victory over Dina's 2
9)  Ed's 2nd ten wins, giving him 3 victories (10,10,5) over Fran's 4.

4)  Ron answered this one just recently, although I forget the thread, but yes only the main score is snap-shotted - bonus dice and Humanity remain at full.

6)  Yes, an unBound demon has a binding strength of 0, so you go against the scores unmodified by Binding.  (I don't have the book with me so I'm not going to say "yes, those particular equations are correct" but you are correct in assuming Binding is zero in those instances)

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I answered some of these by email, but here's the full spread of answers.

1) How often may a demon attempt to regain Power after being Punished?

Depends on the customization of demons for the particular game. If they are very human-like and material (regardless of Type), then treat them like people recovering from injury. If you're focusing instead on Need as a major feature of play, then figure their Power recovers a point upon getting their Need. Or any of a hundred similar possible answers based on the customizing.

2) I'm not entirely clear on what Humanity is rolled against in each ritual. This is what I have, correct me if I've got any wrong:
Contact: Humanity vs. Power (loss)
Summon: Humanity vs. Itself (loss)
Bind: Humanity vs. Power(?) (loss)
Contain/Punish: None
Banish: Humanity vs. Power (gain)

For Contact, Summon, and Bind, the Humanity check is always rolled against the demon's Power. For Banish, be sure to note the limitations on when the Humanity gain roll is legal.

3) A demon in withdrawal from Need (or Binding, or Hosting) whose Power has been reduced to zero, now starts checking for Stamina loss daily, by rolling it's ORIGINAL Power vs. it's ORIGINAL Stamina, right? I lost your other reply to this, because I forgot to save it. D'oh.

Original Power vs. current Stamina. Really sucks for the demon.

4) Snap-shot Rituals only reduce the dice of the main score being used to 1, Humanity and any bonus dice remain in full effect (bonus dice obviously being at GM's discretion), correct?

Correct in full.

5) It's not listed on the Rituals chart, but when Punishing, the demon gets to roll (Stamina+Binding), with losses coming off its Power, while when Banishing, the demon rolls (Power+Will+Binding), with losses meaning it goes Poof, yes?

Correct in full.

6) On a related note, I assume Punishing an unBound demon would simply be vs. Stamina, and Banishing an unBound demon would simply be vs. (Power+Will).

Correct in full.

7) In the case of the following rolls:
Abe - 9, 9, 9, 7, 2 and Bob - 9, 9, 8, 4
Which of the following is true:
a) Abe's third 9 wins, giving him 1 victory over Bob's 8
b) Bob's 8 wins, giving him 1 victory over Abe's 7

(a) is correct.

8) Similarly, in the case of the following:
Cate - 8, 7, 7, 1 and Dina - 8, 7, 2, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Cate's second 7 wins, with 1 victory over Dina's 2
b) Dina's 2 wins, with one victory over Cate's 1

(a) is correct.

9) And finally, in the case of
Ed - 10, 10, 10, 5, 4 and Fran - 10, 4, 3, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Ed's second 10 wins, with 3 victories over Fran's 4
b) Ed's 5 wins, with 1 victory over Fran's 4

Neither. Each side loses a 10, and thus Ed wins with a single victory (two 10's against Fran's single 10).

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Hello,

I answered some of these by email, but here's the full spread of answers.

* Sorry for double-asking, at the time the Forge wouldn't let me on. Maybe its demonic powers are weaker on the Sabbath, I don't know =/
Also, apologies for not knowing the posting system well enough to do the quote thing properly.. I'm just gonna fudge it the way I do on boards with no HTML.

1) How often may a demon attempt to regain Power after being Punished?

Depends on the customization of demons for the particular game. If they are very human-like and material (regardless of Type), then treat them like people recovering from injury. If you're focusing instead on Need as a major feature of play, then figure their Power recovers a point upon getting their Need. Or any of a hundred similar possible answers based on the customizing.

* Fair enough. I should have assumed that was a customizable element, but didn't see that stated explicitly so I wanted to be sure.

2) I'm not entirely clear on what Humanity is rolled against in each ritual. This is what I have, correct me if I've got any wrong:
Contact: Humanity vs. Power (loss)
Summon: Humanity vs. Itself (loss)
Bind: Humanity vs. Power(?) (loss)
Contain/Punish: None
Banish: Humanity vs. Power (gain)

For Contact, Summon, and Bind, the Humanity check is always rolled against the demon's Power. For Banish, be sure to note the limitations on when the Humanity gain roll is legal.

* Okay, this makes sense but is confusing to me. The text in the book is unclear to me. In the actual descriptions of the rituals, the Humanity effects aren't really dealt with. In the example with Kavita, it is only explicitly stated for Contact, the others it just says "Humanity check". Maybe it explicitly states it elsewhere, I'm still working through it page by page.

3) A demon in withdrawal from Need (or Binding, or Hosting) whose Power has been reduced to zero, now starts checking for Stamina loss daily, by rolling it's ORIGINAL Power vs. it's ORIGINAL Stamina, right? I lost your other reply to this, because I forgot to save it. D'oh.

Original Power vs. current Stamina. Really sucks for the demon.

* Okay, this one throws me. As I replied via email, this answer is directly contradictory to the book, which on page 59 under The Rule of Need, states:
"A demon [in Need] will lose 1 Power per day until it is down to zero... At that point it will lose 1 Stamina per day unless it rolls its Power successfully vs. its original Stamina."
This was the source of my confusion. Your answer above, (Original Power vs. current Stamina) makes ample sense, so I will go with that. Perhaps the text is a typo?

7) In the case of the following rolls:
Abe - 9, 9, 9, 7, 2 and Bob - 9, 9, 8, 4
Which of the following is true:
a) Abe's third 9 wins, giving him 1 victory over Bob's 8
b) Bob's 8 wins, giving him 1 victory over Abe's 7

(a) is correct.

* Okay, so I would be correct in assuming single dice results cancel out and vanish completely, leaving the rest of the results untouched. Good.

8) Similarly, in the case of the following:
Cate - 8, 7, 7, 1 and Dina - 8, 7, 2, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Cate's second 7 wins, with 1 victory over Dina's 2
b) Dina's 2 wins, with one victory over Cate's 1

(a) is correct.

* Right. The 8s cancel, the 7s cancel, only one 7 is left. Boom. Clean and simple.

9) And finally, in the case of
Ed - 10, 10, 10, 5, 4 and Fran - 10, 4, 3, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Ed's second 10 wins, with 3 victories over Fran's 4
b) Ed's 5 wins, with 1 victory over Fran's 4

Neither. Each side loses a 10, and thus Ed wins with a single victory (two 10's against Fran's single 10).

* What?? Following the logic in your answers to the examples above, Ed should be left with two 10s and a 5 as victories over Fran's 4, which is consistent with result (a) above. I have no idea how you came up with your answer. Please clarify?

Best,
Ron

Thanks bunches, man... it's truly amazing to have this kind of direct-from-the-man support for what is usually a "just fudge it as best you can and make it a house rule" hobby.

[Ron Edwards]

Actually, I need to double-check on the loss of Power, loss of Stamina thing. I may have said it exactly backwards.

Best,
Ron

[Lxndr]

9) And finally, in the case of
Ed - 10, 10, 10, 5, 4 and Fran - 10, 4, 3, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Ed's second 10 wins, with 3 victories over Fran's 4
b) Ed's 5 wins, with 1 victory over Fran's 4

Neither. Each side loses a 10, and thus Ed wins with a single victory (two 10's against Fran's single 10).

Ron, if each side loses a 10, shouldn't it be 3 victories, not a single victory?

10,10,10,5,4 vs 10,4,3,1... drop a 10 off each side and you have

10,10,5,4 vs. 4,3,1.  Thus the 10,10,5 are all higher than Fran's 4.

If I'm wrong... what am I missing?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Alexander,

Fuck. I did screw up that answer, but not in the way that you suggest. So now I'll start all over.

Basics first, just to make sure everyone's on the same page. Consider all of the following:

8, 8, 5, 1, 1 vs. 8, 7, 7, 7, 7

10, 5, 3, 2, 1 vs. 9, 9, 9, 9, 9

10, 10, 10, 1, 1 vs. 10, 10, 1, 1, 1

In all three of these, the numbers on the left beat the numbers on the right with 1 victory.

Back to the original version (your paraphrase is tying you up):

9) And finally, in the case of
Ed - 10, 10, 10, 5, 4 and Fran - 10, 4, 3, 1
which of the following is true:
a) Ed's second 10 wins, with 3 victories over Fran's 4
b) Ed's 5 wins, with 1 victory over Fran's 4

For some people, saying "drop the high dice" works, and for others, it gums them up ... let me say it over again in a different way.

Fran's high die is a 10. It is not lost, or dropped (in this explanation). It stands "in defiance" of Ed's three 10's. However, it is only strong enough to defy one of them, and Ed has two victories (the two 10's) over Fran.

This stuff is so much easier to explain with actual dice, face to face.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

hmmmmm.  

In all my years of following Sorcerer play and even playing it (albiet not regularly), my interpretation has always been that of Lxndr's.  In your third example I'd have read that as a total victory 10 over three 1s.

In fact, your explanation leaves me scratching my head with a big huh?


Without further thought, I can't yet say that I don't like your interpretation, but my initial reaction is that reading the dice that way really reduces the chance of scoring multiple victories, and at higher dice levels reduces the whole system to "who can roll the most 10s"...

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Fuck twice. I'm starting all over. Ignore everything I said above about this instance; what follows is both (a) textbook and (b) the way I really play.

Ed - 10, 10, 10, 5, 4 and Fran - 10, 4, 3, 1

Ed wins with three victories. You ignore Ed's first 10 and Fran's 10. Alexander was perfectly correct and I just forgot about the 5 and the 4.

Did anyone else get hit with that fucking virus that shuts down your computer? It's ruining my life; PM me to tell me how to fix it (the solution at work only worked at work). When your life is being ruined, your brain stops functioning well.

Best,
Ron

[Lxndr]

Ouch.  I know nothing of that virus, Ron, but good luck with it.  Anyway, now that I know I wasn't misinterpreting, I'm going to tackle Ralph's comment:

In your third example I'd have read that as a total victory 10 over three 1s.

assuming you're referring to 10,10,10,1,1 vs. 10,10,1,1,1

The first two tens cancel, leaving 10,1,1 vs 1,1,1

Only one die (10) is greater than the highest die on the other side (1), so it's one victory, not a total victory.  

Now if I understand total victories right, if it was 10,10,10 vs. 10,10,1,1,1, you'd get 10 vs 1,1,1.  That'd be a total victory.  The more dice you roll, the harder a "total" victory is to get.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Argh, more details.

Actually, Alexander, I only acknowledge Total Victory when all of the winner's dice are higher than the loser's, regardless of ties. In other words, if you tie at the top and then move to lower dice to resolve it, Total Victory is already a non-issue.

The more I think about it, the less necessary Total Victory seems to be as a rules-feature. It seemed like such a good idea at the time, but I think that was a vestigial feature of too many years of "must ... have ... criticals." It's handy for a bit of Color, and that's about it.

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Alright... so, matched high faces cancel out completely, just like anyone who's ever played a game with dice would expect, and I'm not taking crazy pills...

I spent half an hour at Games Plus rolling handfuls of d12s and scribbling in a notebook trying to grasp the method Ron was trying to explain, and after a while I felt like I was actually starting to understand... or at least that I was starting to see that there WAS something to understand... I never quite got it.

Now I'm wondering if I was simply starting to lose my mind.

Hmm.. I was going to ask a convoluted combat-mechanics question about initiative and stuff, but I actually think it'll work itself out in play. We'll see.

BUT, I do have another question which I will post in a new thread.

thanks for the support!

[clehrich]

You have two sets of numbers.  Arrange them in order, high to low.  Eliminate ties, starting at the top, until one side beats the other.  This is the winner of the roll.

Now count the victories.  Every die in the winner's pile that is higher than any die in the loser's is a victory.

Example 1:

10, 10, 10, 5, 4 vs. 10, 4, 3, 1

Eliminate ties:

10, 10, 5, 4 vs. 4, 3, 1

Left is winner.

Every die in the winner's pile that is higher than any die in the loser's is a victory:

10, 10, 5 are victories; the 4 is not.

Therefore Left wins with 3 victories.

Example 2:

8,8,5,1,1 vs. 8,7,7,7,7

Eliminate ties:

8,5,1,1, vs. 7,7,7,7

Left is winner.  Now count victories:

8

Left is winner by 1.

Example 3: Total Victory

For total victory, every die must defeat the loser, ignoring ties.

10, 10, 9, 8, 7 vs. 10, 6, 5, 3

Eliminate ties:

10, 9, 8, 7 vs. 6, 5, 3

All dice win: total victory.


To repeat

1. Put in order
2. Eliminate ties at top end to establish winner
3. Every remaining die in winner's pile that is higher than any remaining die in the loser's is a victory
4. If every remaining winner's die is a victory, that is a total victory


Right?

[Lxndr]

No, Chris, not right on the Total Victory part.  As Ron said a few posts back:

[quote="Ron Edwards"}Actually, Alexander, I only acknowledge Total Victory when all of the winner's dice are higher than the loser's, regardless of ties. In other words, if you tie at the top and then move to lower dice to resolve it, Total Victory is already a non-issue. [/quote]

If the first pair of 10s tie, then there's no total victory, even if everything else wins.  It's just 4 victories.

On the other hand, I think Ron's right that Total Victory is more color than anything else.  But I like having them there.

----

Nev>  You're not alone.  The method we thought Ron was explaining is something that ALMOST made sense to me too.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I got close to getting it before Ron recanted.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Chris, just take the word "remaining" out of your #4, and you're all set.

Best,
Ron