full/semi- auto weapons

[coryblack_666]

i looked around, but it doesnt seem to be that anyone has come up with some good solid rules for this.

So has anyone came up with any?

I thought about trying to make some, but kept getting side tracked with other stuff.  I had idea's about manuevers, like burst fire horizontel, diagnel, verticle.  stuff like that, or with a full auto gun, use something like the falling damage table for a spray of rounds.

just hopin' maybe that might spark some idea's or something.  unless someone has already come up with something.

[Tash]

The old Cyperpunk D10 game had some good rules for firearms including semi-auto, full auto, bursts and supression.  I can't remember what they were now but if you do some googling you can probably find some web page with them.  Also there as a Bubblegum Crisis RPG that used the same rules set, so try looking for that.  They might give some good ideas.

Some suggestions:

Semi auto: every firearm has a rate of fire between 1 and 3 shots a round.  The player can divide their missile pool up between these shots, up to the max rate of fire for the weapon.

Bursts: Use same rules as above except each "shot" has 3-5 bullets in it.

Full auto:  Treat as a single shot except the "shot" has 15-30 bullets in it and is distributed over an area.

Suppression:  Basically turns the firearm into a trap for however many rounds its ammo supply lasts for.

Basic Stats for weapons:

Ammo: what kind of round the weapon uses.  This would in turn effect the effective damage (same as Str+X for a missle weapon) and extra shock that each round does (shock is very important when considering firearm wounds).  These should stay more or less uniform, a 9mm does pretty much the same thing to human flesh regardless of what kind of weapon it is fired from.  

RoF: Rate of Fire, number of shots.round for the weapon in any applicable mode (single, burst, full auto)

Magazine:  How many rounds the weapon can hold.

Accuracy: ATN for a shot.  Also if you want to be realistic you can add recoil penalties or dispersment for followup shots within the same round.

Range: Effective range of the weapon.

Example: H&K MP5 (my personal favorite).

Dam: 9mm DAM 8, Shock 3.
RoF:  3 single, 3x burst, 15 full
Magazine: 30
Accuracy: 5 (we're talking about pure firearm perfection with this gun)
Range: 50 yards, +1 ATN for each 10 yards.

[Malechi]

someone emailed me a set of rules a while back.  Unfortunately we've not a had a chance to play with them yet as some of hte group were averse to shoe-horning the rules into the sci-fi game we wanted to run.. *grumble*

PM me your email and i'll send them your way if you like

[Mayhem1979]

I'm also Beta testing a set if you want 'em.

I just ask for feedback.  Where do they fail, where do they need improvment, what do you like about them, ect...

[bergh]

im not much trained in automatic weapons, becouse i was in the artillery.

anyway i think we need to see on how/why the different modes where used. and relate that into the game.

Single shot: more precission/save ammo.
[best for first shot where the character har a full Missile pool, only mode where aiming should give some good bonuses].

Brust (3 shoots): shot range fire fights where using time to aim, is a death trap, so 3 bullets have more chance of getting the right way.
[best used by characters who don't have to time to fill there missile pool, and therefor only has a pool as his Wits, but works fine also with a full MP,
maybe the extra shots should give +2 dices in the missile pool when shooting, so that if you only got a wits of 5, then you actually have 7 dices to shoot with]


Full auto: To pin down enemy, and to fire at enemy who are crossing protectied terrain hoping that one shot would hit some thing.
[please help me on this one]

Anyway, i only have 2 months training and that 7 years ago, ie with a rifle. so if other more experinced guys, have another oppinion, then please correct me.

[Salamander]

im not much trained in automatic weapons, becouse i was in the artillery.

I think I can help out here, as I wasn't in Artillery ;)

anyway i think we need to see on how/why the different modes where used. and relate that into the game.

Excellent idea, otherwise we will have the guys doing foolish things and dying by the score.... wait, hrm...

Single shot: more precission/save ammo.
[best for first shot where the character har a full Missile pool, only mode where aiming should give some good bonuses].

Single or repetition fire is used for several purposes.
1). To accurately place a round into a target at any effective range.
2). To provide suppression at any range during fire and movement and closing to CQB.
3). To accurately place a round into a hostile target at ranges up to 300m in a high collatoral environment (innocents, materiel neccesary to mission etc. close to your intended target).

Brust (3 shoots): shot range fire fights where using time to aim, is a death trap, so 3 bullets have more chance of getting the right way.
[best used by characters who don't have to time to fill there missile pool, and therefor only has a pool as his Wits, but works fine also with a full MP,
maybe the extra shots should give +2 dices in the missile pool when shooting, so that if you only got a wits of 5, then you actually have 7 dices to shoot with]

The option of burst fire in todays automatic capable weapons has several reasons, each depending upon the individual unit issuing the weapon.
1). To provide the ability to introduce intensive suppression fire while controlling ammunition expenditure.
2). To provide increased lethality at ranges out to 50m.
3). To increase the volume of fire placed out to deny locations and movement to enemy forces.

There are several manufacturers who make trigger groups with the option of two, three, four or even five round bursts available.

Highly disciplined operators almost never require burst fire options as they can place the desired number of rounds on target using Repetition Fire or Volume Fire (Automatic Fire).

As an aside, in almost all Commonwealth Militaries the concept of Fighting In Built Up Areas stresses the use of cover, covering fire, explosive ordinance and obscuring agents in a complete package to maximize effectiveness for effort and resource expenditure (Men and Munitions). Even as a squaddie I was trained in these tenets. Close Quarter Battle is a similar, but much more claustrophobic affair involving an additional, yet entirely different set of skills. In FIBUA/CQB we were always admonished to use autofire and to move quickly using instinctive aiming techniques and responses. They also informed us that the same techniques can be used with reptetion fire if the weapon was incapable of automatic fire due to trigger group or gas regulator troubles, or if you were using a pistol, an extremely effective FIBUA/CQB weapon in the right hands.

Full auto: To pin down enemy, and to fire at enemy who are crossing protectied terrain hoping that one shot would hit some thing.
[please help me on this one]

Volume Fire (Automatic Fire) is a very fascinating creature. Sometimes the operator who uses Volume Fire can make each round count, or he can miss the target completely, with results usually falling in the middle. Only highly skilled and disciplined operators use Auto Fire with success regularly.
1). To provide saturation fire to restrict enemy movement at ranges of up to 300m.
2). To provide area denial or to attack an enemy unit at ranges between 300-600m at the squad level.
3). To provide a high degree of effectiveness in CQB with ranges of less than 10m.
4). To provide impromptu Air Defence Fire when an enemy aircraft is in close proximity and fire is available at the squad level. They proved the effectiveness of this technique in Iraq when an Apache Helicopter was shot down by 30 guys with AKMs. I think they got enough bullets into the turbine air intakes to make the engines die of lead poisoning.
5). In the case of Machineguns... To fire into the protected or Dead zone by aiming the rounds at the hill at such an angle so as to make the round bounce up and over the hill to land behind the hill to land within the deadzone with sufficient energy to injure or kill. I have seen it done with 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .50BMG, 50BMG was by far the most effective at this. The heavier the round the better it "bounces". :|

Anyway, i only have 2 months training and that 7 years ago, ie with a rifle. so if other more experinced guys, have another oppinion, then please correct me.

No correction, just expansion.

[Lance D. Allen]

For anyone who didn't catch those acronyms (it took me a few tries, and I'm used to figuring out military acronyms):

CQB: Close Quarters Battle

FIBUA: Fighting in a Built-up Area

Rather awkward terms, if you ask me.. but I don't suppose anyone did.

[bergh]

puh Salamander, thats a good deal of information! now i begin to remeber what i was teached. hehe.

anyway now we know what the different kind of fire control is used for, now we need to make rules for modern firearms. and let is be a simple as possible.

First lets just use the "old" system from TRoS, when shooting, which seems fine by me, ie. the filling up to the maximum pool at a rate of the wits score. RoF is = turns not exhanges. so having RoF 2 means that you can fire a shot each exchange. im not thinking that RoF is = bullet expenture, just how many times you can "attack" each turn.

Single shoot = normal rules. RoF, 1 or 2, devide CP equal if 2 shoots.

Burst fire= +2 dices to pool/on top of "wits". when shooting within 50meter. is +2 dices to little?. RoF, 1 or 2, devide CP equal if 2 shoots.

Automatic fire= Yes i can't still figure this out. maybe something with +3 dices within 20 meters of something. but i dont think this really fills it out.

guys please write what you think.
i realy also wants functional rules for modern firearms.

BTW to Tash good idea of the Rate of Fire on weapons, this is also very importent.

[Tash]

My thinking for RoF was basically taking the exchange=1 second thing, and figuring "how many times could you fire (pull the trigger) this gun in 1 second?"

Popping off three shots with an MP5 in a second isn't hard, I've done it and I was never trained with any kind of weapon beyond my basic NRA safety course.  Doing the same with my S&W .45 is physically impossible, the gun just doesn't cycle fast enough and recoils too much to get back under control.  So it'd have an RoF of 2.  A bolt action rifle would be RoF 1.

Now when dealing with burst and full auto its basically the same.  In burst mode you pull the trigger and the gun fires, only it fires 3 shots instead of 1 (for all the burst equipped guns I've played with, I know there are some with different burst amounts).  But actually lining up and aiming is pretty much the same.  I can get 3 burst out of an MP5 in 1 second, though the rounds will be a bit scattered.

Full auto is essentially taking a single shot and holding the trigger down, the gun does the rest.  Again, assuming that an exchange = 1 second I just did the math to come up with the RoF for the MP5.  It takes about 2 seconds to empty a 30 round mag, so I figure a full auto rate of fire should be about 15 rnds/sec.  

One alternate rule for full auto might be to use the RoF for the gun in place of the MP of the character.  This would reflect a shoot from the hip, rock and roll style shot rather than the disciplined, aim, fire, assess approach taught to most professional soldiers.

Here are quick stats for my .45:

S&W .45 compact:

Ammo: .45 ACP (dam 7, shock 6)
RoF: 2 (single only)
Mag: 6+1 chamber
Accuracy 7 (the combination of big round and tiny frame make this tough to handle, my wife actually managed to put a round into the bench rest with it once).
Range 5 yards, +1 tn per 10 yards (its a compact model designed for CCW, 2" barrels don't make for)

[Tash]

My thinking for RoF was basically taking the exchange=1 second thing, and figuring "how many times could you fire (pull the trigger) this gun in 1 second?"

Popping off three shots with an MP5 in a second isn't hard, I've done it and I was never trained with any kind of weapon beyond my basic NRA safety course.  Doing the same with my S&W .45 is physically impossible, the gun just doesn't cycle fast enough and recoils too much to get back under control.  So it'd have an RoF of 2.  A bolt action rifle would be RoF 1.

Now when dealing with burst and full auto its basically the same.  In burst mode you pull the trigger and the gun fires, only it fires 3 shots instead of 1 (for all the burst equipped guns I've played with, I know there are some with different burst amounts).  But actually lining up and aiming is pretty much the same.  I can get 3 burst out of an MP5 in 1 second, though the rounds will be a bit scattered.

Full auto is essentially taking a single shot and holding the trigger down, the gun does the rest.  Again, assuming that an exchange = 1 second I just did the math to come up with the RoF for the MP5.  It takes about 2 seconds to empty a 30 round mag, so I figure a full auto rate of fire should be about 15 rnds/sec.  

One alternate rule for full auto might be to use the RoF for the gun in place of the MP of the character, with damage allocated to random locations.  This would reflect a shoot from the hip, rock and roll style shot rather than the disciplined, aim, fire, assess approach taught to most professional soldiers.

Here are quick stats for my .45:

S&W .45 compact:

Ammo: .45 ACP (dam 7, shock 6)
RoF: 2 (single only)
Mag: 6+1 chamber
Accuracy 7 (the combination of big round and tiny frame make this tough to handle, my wife actually managed to put a round into the bench rest with it once).
Range 5 yards, +1 tn per 10 yards (its a compact model designed for CCW, 2" barrels aren't great for placing rounds at a distance).

[Caz]

That's the closest I've heard to the system I've been using.  Here're my .45 stats.

Average Pistol, such as .45 calibur M-1911
ATN 7, +1 per 10 meters
DR 6, +2 vs AV

In a nutshell, I've basically been handling rapid fire with simple recoil rules.  Generally -1MP per each successive shot after the first.  In the case of weapons with a very high RoF, -1MP can count for several rounds.  If the burst was aimed and not at extreme range, all rounds hit in the same area, seperated only by the D6 roll.  
   I've got rules for most related things but that's basically it.

[nsruf]

One problem I see with modern firearms is that skill is not very inmportant in a close firefight, because you never aim to get more than your Wit in MP dice. You might consider an alternative rule* for refreshing MP that uses (Wit + Proficiency) / 2 as refresh rate. That way, only an experienced gunman can make full use of high RoF.

[* Suggested a few weeks back by somebody on these boards. Credit where credit is due;)]

[Tash]

I think that method of handling MP refresh works better than using WIT/rnd.

Sorry about the double post also, I guess I got click happy.

[Caz]

I think in a close firefight, not letting your MP increase by more than one increment is a good representation of point shooting/reflexive fire.  (CQB is my military specialty)  It is kind of a bugger that the proficiency doesn't come into play at that moment though, but I don't know if it's that much of a difference to worry about, as with a little training point shooting is more intuitive than skill, which is represented well by Wit.  
   I've been treating hip shots and other improper point shooting techniques with a simple -1MP per 1 meter after the first.  But, with such unaimed shots I don't bring a recoil penalty into play as it doesn't make a difference, and I roll hit locations randomly as opposed to aimed shots/bursts.

[bergh]

wits+Profency/2 = MP refill rate....good system, that system i will also use.