Epic Scale TROS

[James Buchanan]

Has anyone had much success running a game of TROS that has the characters involved in the games of nations?

I have an idea for a campaign which leads from a humble beginnings of a 7 Samurai-esque village defence scaling up into battles between lords, the outright war between nations, and perhaps even a struggle between good and evil of the likes of the Lord of the Rings.

I see the players being like the fellowship as a small group of individuals dwarfed by the scale of the entire endeavour, but thoroughly integral in determining how the entire world shifts.

At the moment it all feels a bit like a mix of George RR Martin and LotR.

Of course, it's only in the planning stages, in which I a jotting out my ideas for possible scenarios and world changing events.

Has anyone run anything like this before, and if so, can you give me any tips on what worked and what didn't?

-James

[Tash]

Our campaign is doing much the same thing.  The players are members of a mercenary company in the service of a Stahlanish lord who is engaged in a border conflict with a neighbor.  There are hints that a larger conflict might be looming.  I won't say too much because one of my part members reads theese boards, but two of the characters have Destiny or Drive SAs that lead them towards becoming great leaders or warlords, and the party has uncovered intelligence suggesting that the Inquisition may be involved (either directly or just supporting) with the war on the opposing side.  All told the border conflict we are in now is just a prelude to  a much larger series of wars to come that will change the face of Wetyth....if the PCs live long enough to pull it off :)  

Right now its been just some skirmshes, but we had a big battle in last night's session and I think the main conflict will start soon.

[Sir Mathodius Black]

Actually those are some of my favorite campaigns to run/play in.  One key thing you need to think about is whether your players are aware of the sheer scale of what they are doing or do they find it out after they have already begun.  I tend to favor having the characters not know that their quest is epic  in the beginning, but as the story progresses, the characters begin to get that "uhh...guys...I think weve just stumbled onto something major here" feeling if you know what i mean.  That lets the story build tension and it retains a sense of mystery as to their ultimate fate, as opposed to : Bring the One Ring to Mount Doom or everything is lost, period.  Let the characters gradually realize the depth of the plot and its signifigance.
          This is also good because it gives SA's time to develope, change, and keeps them dynamic.  
          One thing to keep in mind is not to have an event that you cant incorporate into later campaigns that are in the same world lest your entire setting begins to unravel.
           
SMB

[James Buchanan]

1. I am kitbashing the SAs a little.

I'm going to ask the players all to take concience, because I would like a more heroic game. They don't have to of course, but I hope they will.

I am going to change destiny a little. So that it becomes less "this will happen to me" and more, "this person has a special purpose, beyond that of a normal man". If the players take Destiny in my games, they will be destined for greatness, but they will not know in what form that greatness will occur.

I'm re-jigging luck a little, I'm intending to run it a little bit more like the 7th Sea drama dice system, with hints of buffy's drama points. I see them as a licence for the players to try and be daring and cool. I'm going to reward that, rather than giving them out as per the guidelines in the book. I think this might create a more daring-do, robin hood type effect for things like, swinging on chandeliers and out windows on drapes and the like.

2. I am also changing something of the CC structure, dropping Merits/FLaws, and making it an A-E choice. Merits and Flaws I'll handle as blancing issues, so that no person is forced to take them, but those that do take flaws, have merits to balance it, and vice versa.

Further, the main loss I see in dropping it to A-E is that there is no "slave" option. I am changing it to a flaw where the minor version is "escaped slave"- you have escaped and made a life for yourself (read: normal social class choice) but there is the ever looming fact that you were a slave which could come back and bite you. Characters with social class A or B may not take this flaw. The major version will be "slave" - you are a slave. Any items that you may have accrued from the purchases of Social Class is actually your master's and may be redistributed at any time.  Also, you are owned, this has significant ramifications.

Beyond that, I am going to rejig it a little further to make the characters a little more epic in scope, but not by much.

3. I am going to keep them in the dark a little, I'm setting them up as local heroes, fighting some bandits, before I start exposing them to the greater storylines that I have in mind. Right now I am starting to put it all together, but currently, I think it will be an interesting 3 way conflict between the forces of "darkness", the forces of the "status quo" and a possible (re-)emergent contingent supporting the thayristic beliefs.

I guess my major concern is that I will not be allowing the players enough freedom of scope, as that is an aspect of TROS that really appeals to me. I want to turn the world around, so that they have to act to try and turn it a little differently. This in some ways forces their hands, which I rather try and avoid. I guess I am aiming for an idea where I present a world and some dramatic events, they act as they see fit, I react as appropriate, and a story evolves.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback thusfar. If you guys have any more ideas, please let me know.

-James

[Kaare Berg]

Hi James,

I am running a game similar to the one you are planning to do right now (albeit in Burning Wheel) and I've got the following advice:

Talk to your players and explain them what type of game/story you are looking for.

Also do a search on epic here on the forum, skim past the discussions on the definition of epic-stories and grab the nuggets, like let the players be heroes and then reap the rewards of said heroism
Don't be afraid of them being the movers and shakers. To get the epic feel you're after they've got to have pull.

Sir Mathodius Black wrote

One thing to keep in mind is not to have an event that you cant incorporate into later campaigns that are in the same world lest your entire setting begins to unravel.

I got to disagree with this. If you are going for that epic feel you've got to be prepared for the major changes your campaign will undergo. If nothing is at stake and the world returns to a statous quo after the "epic events" then what truly has passed is nothing, and your attempt signifies nothing. Thus you loose the epic feel.

Not to rant but to advise ;)

I guess my most important point here is talk to your players and get them aboard with the idea you have. Then before you nail down too much details concerning the actual world shaking plot have a char. gen session to get a hold of the SA's, then build it alround these.

peace,

K

[Sir Mathodius Black]

Actually Negilent, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.  I was saying the exact same thing you were trying to correct me on.  Perhaps i didnt write clearly enough.  What i meant was that if you cannot incorporate the effects of that epic campaign inot your campaign for further use, you need to rethink something.

[James Buchanan]

like let the players be heroes and then reap the rewards of said heroism
Don't be afraid of them being the movers and shakers.

I certainly intend this. But I am going for the dichotomy of being "just human" with being great heroes.

I've been involved in a lot of Exalted recently and the idea that you're superhero (demi-)gods gets more than a little bland to my pallet after a while.

I have fleshed out my gameworld slightly.  I have taken a lot from what was provided, and added a bunch of stuff to what I didn't like. The over-riding themes of what I am hoping to achieve is a  percieved struggle between what was, what is, and the forces which seek to destroy it all.

I am something animistic buff, so I have taken some of the thayrism ideas and moved them around to make them fit for me. I have decided to approach it with the old gods as a pantheonic approach, fused with a pagan idea of a father/mother goddess. Although, I have also decided to work the book version of thayrism in aswell.

Currently it goes a little like this:

--------------------------------------
Triumph, the forger god, crafter of worlds made the world, made from the materials that all the gods provided. The gods looked at this world and were pleased, they could see places in which they could prosper and so they asked Eimekal the Lifebringer, he upon high to give it life.  Eimekal looked at the world that Triumph had created and he too was pleased, he gave of his breath and with the first sunrise brought life to the trees and fields, to the beasts and the birds and to the greatest of Triumph's creations, man. In man, Triumph had placed the riddle of steel,  their greatest quality.

But man did not know himself. He was little better than the beasts in the fields around him. And he stumbled and scratched at the mud. So the gods looked to Eimekal and asked how they could help man. Eimekal thought upon this and said to them. "Give of yourself a teacher, so that they can show men how to be great". It was as such that Thayrs ("teachers") were made. Each of them was imbued with part of their god's spirit, godlike in power so that they could teach man how to become the greatest of creatures in creation.

And with the Thayrs came the Siehe and the Fey, the servants of the Thayrs from the courts of the gods,  creatures of beauty and magic,  who tended to their masters homes and courts when they were away.

And with their teachings, men began to learn, and become like the Thayrs themselves, knowledgeable, strong and honourable. But there was one thing that the Thayrs could not teach them, and that was the riddle of steel, for of all the creatures in the world, only man had been blessed with this gift.

As there was little more that the thayrs could teach, they retreated from mankind, acting as watchers, and to be sought by those who wished to find further wisdom.

But, there are those who sit opposed to the gods in the heavens and they saw what advantage the gods would be achieved from the men and women who mastered the riddle of steel, who in death became the champions of the gods, as they had been the champions of humanity in life. And so they sent their dark minions to the world and reched out, looking for the hints of jealousy and deceit that they could enflame into something more.

They found it amongst men, for these were the men who were callous and uncaring.

They found it amongst the siehe, with some, disenfranchised and far from  their respective Thayr did become unseelie in disposition.

And they found it in one Thayr. Xanar Stormbringer. The most powerful of the Thayrs in the arts of Sorcery and second greatest amongst his kind. But for all his power,  he was not as well liked as his brother Methudal the wise, whom men travelled across the entire world to speak with and learn from.  But try as he may, Xanar could not change this, nor could he fell his brother,  for like Xanar, he was truly immortal.

It was to Xanar, that the great deciever came, he spoke to Xanar and offered him what he wished for. They showed him the deposits in the north where the demon metal, black iron lay. Iron that had been touched by their powers, and infused with the spirit of murder.  Xanar took of his siehe those that also bore the touch of the unmakers, and ventured into the north, seeking the black iron deposits. For seven years his goblins mined, reaching deep into the bowels of the earth,  until they found the black iron, and for seven years they worked the veins, mining the ore and bringing it to Xanar's black forge.  And when they emerged, they were no longer the creatures they had been when they had entered within, they were stronger, faster, more agressive and powerful, and they spread out  through the mountains of the north, and they were called trollspawn.

It was from his black forge that Xanar produced the demonblades, and he reached out into the world, calling to all those that the decievers had spoken to, all those that were happier to prey on mankind,  and he formed an army.  And his army swept down out of the north under the pretense of bringing justice to the world. This was not the first time that wars had been waged, and a great host went forth to meet him, and with them travelled two thayr, who sought to speak with their now mad brother.  But armed in the demon metal, the army was routed and the two thayr captured. It was at this time that Xanar demonstrated the true purpose of his black iron blade.  As the Blood of her companion lay cooling on the blade of Xanar, Taikella first knew mortal fear, and in this moment swore herself to Xanar's side.  From there, the nine were forged.

For years the Thayr war raged until it became obvious to the remaining few that  it were better that they pass from the world and take Xanar with them, than allow him to slowly whittle them down, one by one. And so on the plain outside of the temple of Eimekal that Methudal was the High priest of, the two greatest forces of all time met.  And it was at this battle a concert of the 9 most powerful remaining Thayr released a sorcery of such great power, throwing all their energies into it, sacrificing themselves for the sake of the world.

Xanar had no way of expecting his immortal brothers and sisters to sacrifice themselves like such,  and was defeated, with his black iron clad forces. But the mainlund was in ruins, with only the empire of Xanar remaining as a real political power.

Slowly the world began to rebuild itself, into what it has become today, and these tales have passed into legend and become corrupted by the supersticions of the people. One of the unexpected fallouts of the sacrifice sorcery of the Thayrs was that it distributed their power throughout the world; some of this power came to rest within humans, and these were sorcerers.

Of course, this doesn't cover so much of the actual "gods", more the history of "Thayrism". The actual gods I'll work out  as I further develop it.
I already have ideas for Eimekal, the lifebringer, Sun Lord, lord of daylight etc..
and his consort (name in determination.. something to do with destiny), Lady of the Night, Mystery, Solace of Champions, and the Maiden Wreathed in stars.
-------------------------

The principles of this religion is to emphasise that humans are the greatest of the gods creations, and that the Thayrs were only ever supposed to be their teachers and guides in the worship of the old gods.

It also does something that I wanted to do with sorcery. It makes it more of a "tapping into the life of the world", the power of gods. This is not something that the human form is built to handle, which is why it ages them, but it makes it less a foul act of the deciever and something more natural.

The idea of how I am going to use this in my campaign is that this is the "truth" known only to a few (read: the few remaining Thayrs and their chosen) who have retreated from the world of men, so as not to draw the attention of the remaining members of the 9.

"Thayrism" as the religion described in the book is what most "Tharyists" believe. They are wrong, as most of the sources they learned from have changed their stories or lost the books that they once had. (The corruption of history over time)

It is something that the players may have the chance to uncover, because of their great destiny, to encounter one of the remaining Thayrs, who may show them a little more of the truth.

This all has pertinence to them, because the black forge has been found again, and once again, the demonblades are being forged.

Of course, the players won't find out about this until a while into the campaign, so that they can see how the world around them is starting to change.

-James

[Edit: Added some god info]

[Kaare Berg]

Great work James,

Now what I would do is to let my players know this history, let them know that the demonblades are being forged again, and let this OOC knowledge flavour their ractions to events.

I guess you can liken it to reading the back of a video or a book, where the basic situation is laid out, but the characters in the story do not know and we as viewers/readers can enjoy the deeper meaning of events that the characters must figure out.

This can also be combined with your plan to gradually reveal the finding of the dark forge by not giving any spesifics but by vagues refrences to hammerblows on the north wind, and the strange blades of the trollkin kings.

the advice here is that if you want an epic game you have got to set the tone from character generation and onwards. It is no good to pitch you campaign as a gritty tale of survival as mercenaries and then try to change it later.

And I am not saying you can't combine gritty survival with an epic tone, its just that you have to get your players onto the same playingfield as you if you want this to happen the way you envision.

I gues what I am trying to tell you is what Ron and Ralph much more eloquently put to me in this discussion here:http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9255&highlight=restless+forest. Skip the first few posts and get to the meat futher down.

Hope it helps

*edited to activate the link.

[James Buchanan]

Well.. what I was thinking of doing was talking with them about what I intended to do for "destiny". About the greatness inherent in it etc..

I will talk to them about the themes I have in mind, how there may be influences of the old gods and lost histories and such.

And finally, I am going to run a scene where they are taken in by the lady destiny, visited in their dreams and presented with a table of options, various objects linked to various destinies (with a fairly obvious symbology)

And let them choose their path..

-James

[James Buchanan]

Also, I think I'll have a chat with the players about what they want.

I have some ideas for a gritty dark fantasy tale, aswell as the nigh high-fantasy-ness that I have in mind for this. Although, I think I could also probably swing this one both ways.

-James