NPA Cover first draft

[Jeph]

Reactions from the family:

It's buisy.
WTF does a gear have to do with anything?
It takes studying to understand.
Is that supposed to be a "no" symbol?
If it's supposed to be a "no" symbol, it should be a "no" symbol, not a gear.
It's confusing.

So, take that as you will.
--Jeff

[Luke]

Reactions from the family:

WTF does a gear have to do with anything?

Ah, yes! I forgot to mention this in the last post. The concept behind the gear: Mechanics! All we do is talk about game mechanics, I thought that the gear my be a decent representation of said concept. Also, gears are cool looking and distinctive. And they are round, which makes for the beginnings of a good iconic logo.

It takes studying to understand.

This is a good thing.

thanks
-L

[madelf]

A vast improvement.
Not what I would have done, but there's nothing wrong with that.
(much) ;)

Adding the shadow gears in the background (and the gray  within the gear logo) breaks the field of white up enough that it now seems much more of a thought-out design choice than a lack of ideas for a background.

And I think you have a point about the colors. This certainly won't look like anything else in the store, and in that context it should work as planned.

I don't think the slash mark in the logo works. The traditional circle & slash is red and overlaps the image. I think trying to eemulate that with something in gray, and behind the image, is not going to give the same impression. I think letting them wonder why there's a press on a "no press" is a better way to get them thinking that trying to figure out what the gray band is across the gear.

I think the eight is perfect.
A  drop shadow, like in the title text, might help to punch it out. But I agree that it balances the cover.

[Matt Machell]

Colors: The mission, and I chose to accept it, was to not use blue or red or gold in the cover design -- the most overused colors out there.

Ah, well, if that's your mission. I didn't mean totally blue, but more jade than the current colour. I assume if you picked a pantone jade it'd still count as one colour for printing purposes.

Anyhow, Clinton's right. We're being too negative. Positive stuff:

Cogs motif is cool. Big 8 says you're getting value for money in an obvious way. It's big and bold.

-Matt

[Jack Spencer Jr]

The new cover is an improvement.

I will say that the 8 is a bit too busy it it's design and difficult to recognize as an 8, like Ralph said. And the "no" slash is difficult to recognize as a "no" slash since it doesn't cover the press.

What are you trying to say with the gear in the logo? That is, what does it mean?

[xiombarg]

Luke already said the gear is supposed to represent game mechanics. Though I must admit I would have never figured that out if he hadn't told me.

I like the new cover better than the first one, and I like the "no" slash -- but it hurts my eyes behind the press like that. I agree with Jack and others -- shouldn't it actually be over the press?

Frankly, I think the big gear and slash should be turned into a big circle with the slash -- i.e. a traditional "no" symbol, tho in black, say, rather than red. The current one is too busy and it hurts, hurts, hurts. Did I mention it hurts?

And why is the logo the same as the original (i.e. no slash) on the back cover? Shouldn't the symbol on the front and back cover match?

Frankly, the grey gears gest the "mechanics " thing over fine without it having to be in the logo itself as well, and you get a nice combination of obvious and subtle that way. That's why I say use a normal "no" symbol and kick the gear to the curb for the front cover, except in those grey watermarks.

The rest if fine. I like the 8, but I'm a sucker for "stressed" fonts. Though I tend to agree the back cover kicks way more ass than the front cover.

A random thought: Would it look less busy if the press looked different? The checkered paper it's pooping out is where part of the hurt comes from.

All that said, I am not a graphic artist, or even an informed layman. This is just me speaking from my gut. But I do wish the main logo hurt my eyes less. The rest is either fine or awesome.

Now, if one wanted to go in a totally different direction: Hell, since most of the games have that strip on the side with art, why not have *that* on the front cover? That is, a strip of art, showing the gears, and then the rest just plain text, with no logo other than the strip. Very simple -- I liked that about the Burning Wheel cover, why not keep that simplicity? Keep the back cover, perhaps with the "no" version of the logo I mention above.

Oh, and I agree with the "includes" nitpick. How about having it say "includes (among others)" rather than just "includes"?

To end on a positive note, tho: I LOVE the "forged" quote on the back cover. That's spot on.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Sorry. Somehow missed Luke's explanation. Still not loving it. I think it makes the logo a bit too loaded. It already has the meaning of pixels to press to paper *AND* it has a gear to represent mechanics? Like I said, I'm not loving mechanics being represented at all. I don't think it's necessary. I also don't like the idea of using a machine part to represent it, but that's just me.

Sorry I'm so negative. I guess I'm taking "It's great except for..." approach.

Now, about the logo...

"Pixel to Press to Paper"

It actually doesn't flow like this in the picture because of the angle of the press. Visually, it flows from the stack of books behind it through the press to the stream of checkers coming out of it and towards the viewer at an angle.

Since the symbolism of the bress is unimportant, I suggest the following:

* Get rid of the books behind the press. It not readily apparent what they are and since for the proper flow they would need to be in fornt of the press, it's not worth redesigning the entire graphic.

* Ditch the gear idea and replace it with a simple, solid circle and slash "no" symbol. Be sure the slash covers the press.

* This is my personal choice her, but keep the stream of checkers and have this on top of the circle so it looks like the stream is coming out of the "no" symbol. This has the meaning of No press, but it's here anyway. It broke out of or broke free of the restrictions placed on it. In fact, the stream could continue to expand and wrap around the cover to the back. In a very driect way lead people to the back of the book. In fact, the little blurbs for each game could fit into the stream on the back. That may be stylistically difficult, but if it's done right it would be pretty. To help it contrast, the stream could also be green.

And I still don't like the 8. Its just too busy a character design to work, I think. At least not for the first NPA, anyway. Later, when people come to recognize future NPAs and expect a number for the number of games on the cover, you could even use weirder numeral like Arabic numerals.

[Michael S. Miller]

Hi, Luke. I would have posted sooner, but I can't get burningwheel.org at work.

Generally I like it. A lot. THe white black & green rocks. The gears rock! The shaky font rocks! The logo grows on me by the minute. The remainder are nitpicks, but some nitpicks I feel strongly about. So when I yell, remember that it's in that spirit.

LOSE THE SLASH! Do not pass GO, do not collect $200, just kill that slash right this minute! It blends in with the paper on the press, making the logo harder to figure out, and means nothing. No offense to Jack, who first suggested it, but it was a completely unnecessary addition. The irony of No Press vs. picture of Press is good. The cleanness of the original was a strength and the slash takes that away while giving nothing back. As others have said, it doesn't even work as a slash. I hate it with an unreasoning passion that troubles me. It's gonna give me nightmares. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. Please make it GO AWAY.

I like the size of the 8, but the font is a bit too jaggy--is that the same font that "The No Press RPG Anthology" is in? 'Cause it's much harder to read. Just smooth it out a bit--especially the bottom counter where it overlaps the word "Roleplaying"--and it rocks!

My wife doesn't like the "Fun! Good!" on the back because it makes the logo appear off center, even though I know it's not. I dislike it because it seems to insult the intelligence of the prospective customer--it makes me think of magazine cover copy aimed at 8-year-olds.

I prefer "8 complete, short-form roleplaying games" or even "8 complete roleplaying games." The "short-form" is obvious. I think the word "complete" is our most important selling point. The "average" consumer measures games by page-count and will be surprised (and, I hope, intrigued) that 8 games can fit in a book the size usually alotted for 1. "unique" is as overused as red, blue and gold, I think.

Perhaps add "and six more complete RPGs" after mentioning Discernment and Cell Gamma. Hit them over the head with how much they're getting.

"Introduction by" should be more prominent, if we land a more prominent name.

I like the shaded box on the back--just make sure the whites in the images remain white--of course you will, I know this was a quick mock-up.

I kinda want the eight boxes on the back to have more ... I don't know. More visual interest and to be more closely visually tied to their game title. Maybe rectangular rather than square? But then you lose much of the detail, I know. They're fine now, I just can't help thinking that they could really soar!

In short, Good job, Luke! There's nothing like the NPA on the market, and the cover looks like nothing else on the market. It's a perfect fit!

... as long as you lose the God-forsaken slash.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

LOSE THE SLASH! Do not pass GO, do not collect $200, just kill that slash right this minute! It blends in with the paper on the press, making the logo harder to figure out, and means nothing. No offense to Jack, who first suggested it, but it was a completely unnecessary addition. The irony of No Press vs. picture of Press is good. The cleanness of the original was a strength and the slash takes that away while giving nothing back. As others have said, it doesn't even work as a slash. I hate it with an unreasoning passion that troubles me. It's gonna give me nightmares. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. Please make it GO AWAY.

I guess we all have our opinions. Since I don't have a game in the book, I don't expect mine to carry more weight than your when Luke makes his decision. But I still disagree on pretty much every point you've made about it, but the slash as it currently is needs to be improved as per my previous post.

The only reason I can think of for not having the slash over the press is Luke probably didn't want to cover the press graphic. I can understand that, but I think it should be either have the slash over the press covering it partially so the "no" is clear or forget the slash altogether.

I have been fiddling with it still in PSP and the partially covered press is still recognizable as a press and the "no" pops better.

There seems to be a consensus growing on the jagged eight.

[Andy Kitkowski]

Hey all- I don't have much of an opinion either way, because my bias (the fact that I'll buy buying this book the INSTANT I see it) will just interfere with my claims.

However, I was thinking that I'd dig the cover if you did this:

Front cover: Keep the logo and all, but shrink it and move it onto the top half of the page, and in the bottom find a way to put the names and icons from the 8 RPGs (currently on the back cover) on the front. That would REALLY show the buyer, from looking at the cover, the "value for the dollar" of what the game is. Even if it upsets the graphic layout of the cover, it might be worth it. Showing the names of the games on the front cover I think would have a stronger impact.

On the back, where the game titles used to be, would be 8 1-sentence blurbs about the games found within.

That's all the feedback I have. I can't wait to pick it up, either way.

[Christopher Weeks]

I know, take the slash off the logo, but then have a die-cut red celophane circle/slash symbol fixed to the cover in the exact size of the big gear...I'm sure that's cheap, right?

I really liked the way the big gear was jammed into the corner in the first draft.  The only think the larger eight seems to need is enlarged negative spaces in the lobes of the figure...did you use a bolded eight?

The idea of iconic pictures on the front is nice, but I think it rocks the way it is now on back.  I wonder if you could generate a series of eight tall and thin pictures to go on the front like slats of fenceposts or something.  If it were intersperced with seven letters that spelled out a useful word (nopress? I think fungood, buythis, fungame, all suck) you might make it a useful graphic element.

Anyway, brainstorming.

Chris

[timfire]

As someone with no connection to the project, take my opinion for what it is. I *really* like the second draft, except for a few nitpicks.

Nitpick #1: The "8" on the front page is slightly too large. I think it draws a little too much attention to itself. I would keep it slightly larger than the three lines of text, but would reduce it slightly.

Nitpick #2: It doesn't seem 'right' to only list 2 games on the front. I would list all of them, or none of them.

Nitpick #3: The slash is too vertical, I think it looks a little awkward. I think if you adjusted it closer to 45 degrees, it would be easier to identify it as a 'no'-slash. I might think about making it darker, too.

Nitpick #4: This isn't that small. I have to say I don't like the press graphic. I like the idea of a picture of a press, but there's something weird about the press as it is now. I think there's something funny about the perspective of the press.

But again, I *really* like the second, except for those nitpicks.

[Andrew Morris]

"unique" is as overused as red, blue and gold, I think.

Yes, oh god, yes, I agree.

Also, doesn't the slash in the "no" symbol traditionally run from bottom left to top right at a 45-degree angle?

[Jeph]

"unique" is as overused as red, blue and gold, I think.

Yes, oh god, yes, I agree.

Also, doesn't the slash in the "no" symbol traditionally run from bottom left to top right at a 45-degree angle?

It, in fact, does not.
--Jeff

[Jack Aidley]

My thoughts...

I prefer the original cover concept with the text inside the gear. It's looks more interesting to my eyes, and more connected - I also think it's much better without the slash.

The larger eight doesn't really do it for me - I also see it as a '&', perhaps if it was raised slightly, or in a less distressed font? I also find that the fact it sits behind the other text in the line makes it difficult to spot and read and makes it seem less important than it should.

The ghosted gears in the background are a big improvement.

I don't like the way two games are picked out in this way, it makes it seem a bit 'and there's these other games as well'. I'd use the text something like 'featuring games from the designers behind Fulminata and Universalis!'

I prefer the boxed layout of the second design but would loose the 'fun' 'good' tags - they just seem tacky to me.

And a final suggestion, rather different from the current conception. I'd be inclined to copy the eight mini-images onto the front cover, and place them in either a line down one side, or two lines at the top and bottom.