Space combat

[Morrius]

I'm designing a spacefaring setting, and I need a good system that can handle space combat well.  I tried using WEG's d6 Space, but I found that it took too much tweaking to become useable.  While I've tried homebrewing my own systems from the ground, I want to see what other systems are out there first.  Can anyone recommend a game that does space combat well?  I'm looking for something where the PCs will each be flyiing single-person fighters, but is also capable of handling capital ship vs. captial ship and fighters vs. capital ship combat too.

[Vaxalon]

What scale?  Ship-to-ship?

At the fleet scale, you can't beat Full Thrust.  Its only real problem is that it's damn granular.

[JamesSterrett]

As a general suggestion:  If you're looking for a boardgame, try asking on the Yahoogroups list SFCONSIM-L  (Science Fiction Conflict Simulation-List).  The link is:    SFConsim-L link

SFConsim tends to have a high signal:noise ratio and is often aimed at game design.

Do be sure to repeat your qualifiers - in fact, highlight them - that you want both fighters and capital ships.

It's helpful, too, if you clarify exactly what you want out of your space combat in terms of your RPG.


Two indie boardgames games that might be of particular interest:

Second Rat's Arclight uses ships that have some RPG characteristics.  (http://www.secondrat.com/)

Jeff Siadek's Battlestations puts an RPG into a space combat game: to do things on the ships, a character has to move to the appropriate station to perform the action.  (http://www.battlestations.info/)

[Morrius]

Well, let's see here.  What I need is something capable of ship to ship combat, with a wide variety of scale, from one-pan fighters to massive captial ships.  I would like the system to be capable of both easy ship design and easy use, with chart consulting kept to a minimum.  The PC pilots should only need a couple of skills to participate in ship combat.  So the space combat is a part of the game, but not the whole game itself.  I would also like to see support for performing piloting stunts, such as bootelegger turns or 360 somersaults, and how they can effect combat.  For example, if a pilot makes a roll to perform a stunt, he can then get a bonus to either his attack or defense.

[JamesSterrett]

I'd tend towards taking a look at Arclight, from your description.

There may well be something better suited to your needs, but I don't know about it.  :)

[Andrew Martin]

Star Hunters, from this page: http://www.geocities.com/saedor/hits.html might be suitable as well. And this page lists a few alternative SF wargames: http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/Rules/Science_Fiction/science_fiction.htm

[Vaxalon]

Well, let's see here.  What I need is something capable of ship to ship combat, with a wide variety of scale, from one-pan fighters to massive captial ships.  I would like the system to be capable of both easy ship design and easy use, with chart consulting kept to a minimum.  The PC pilots should only need a couple of skills to participate in ship combat.  So the space combat is a part of the game, but not the whole game itself.

Full Thrust could easily be the foundation for what you want.  

I would also like to see support for performing piloting stunts, such as bootelegger turns or 360 somersaults, and how they can effect combat.  For example, if a pilot makes a roll to perform a stunt, he can then get a bonus to either his attack or defense.

Full thrust doesn't do this as it stands, but it could easily be made to do so.

[btrc]

My Slag! system can handle the simple ship design, scale and combat needs, but I think it would not do the stunts aspect as is. You might be able to mutate to fit your needs.

My main thought is that unless your game is "movie space combat", where all ships have to be close enough to hit each other with thrown rocks, the fancy stunts will be tough to rationalize. Similarly, a system which can handle both fighters and dreadnoughts is going to have to operate on a distance and movement and damage scale that will allow the dreadnoughts to do useful movement and fire.

Compare it to modern naval combat (involving big slow ships and small fast planes). On a time and distance scale that handles tomahawk missiles and volleys of 15 inch shells that take minutes to arrive, is your ability to do an Immelman better than you can do a barrel roll going to be significant?

Personally, I get a bit antsy when dealing with PC's and vehicle combat, just because of the forces involved. -One percent- of a typical tank shell's energy is still -several- times as much as a heavy machinegun bullet...

Or, an amount of damage capable of being "1 hit" on a battleship would be enough to wipe out an entire -squadron- of fighters. If a fighter can carry such a weapon (say a missile of some kind), then if you hit a PC-piloted fighter with it...

PC: I made my save! One-tenth damage!
GM: Okay, they find one-tenth of your body...

And so you either have to go through convoluted (and generally unbelievable) explanations of why PC's on starships don't get blown into pink mist when the "proton torpedoes" hit, or you have to fudge it every time a ship takes a hit that would realistically wipe out the entire party.

As a sample argument/counter-argument: If ships are equipped with ejection capsules that can detect, categorize -and- respond to catastrophic damage fast enough to punch a PC clear (yet slow enough not to pulp him from g-stress), then why the hell aren't you mounting countermeasure systems that can respond that fast to keep you from getting hit in the first place?

Not trying to let the wind out of your sails by any means, just pointing out some potential problems. Space combat is great fun to play. I just don't want to do it as a PC...

Greg
BTRC

[Vaxalon]

There's a mechanic in Full Thrust that addresses this issue.

An "Ace" squadron isn't a squadron of aces, but rather, a squadron that CONTAINS an ace.  The ace is always the last to die, so the squadron retains its "ace" status until it's gone.

A PC would command a squadron, and as such his skills would affect the whole squadron, but he wouldn't be in PERSONAL danger until his squadron was wiped out.

The mechanics of Full Thrust make it hard (but possible) to wipe out a squadron in one round, and very difficult to attack a squadron that's fleeing from combat.

I have an adaptation of Full Thrust to D20 Farscape somewhere that I should put on the 'net someday.

[btrc]

An "Ace" squadron isn't a squadron of aces, but rather, a squadron that CONTAINS an ace. The ace is always the last to die, so the squadron retains its "ace" status until it's gone.

That's clever, I like it. And it isn't far-fetched, since you just assume the ace is the guy whose skills keep him alive longest. Dodge, parry, cavort...

Now, if you can scale it up or modify it for PC's as crew on capital ships, you'll be set.

Greg
BTRC

[anonymouse]

The only system I've ever used for spacey combat was the one presented in Mekton Zeta. This is out of print, and geared towards cinematic animation-style fighting, but it's a very internally consistant system, hex-based, and I think it has a lot of charm (especially the construction rules).

The actual "rpg" side of things is, I think, a little lacking, but that's not what you're looking for, so. ;)

It's usually available cheaply via ebay and similar, so it might be something to check out.

[Vaxalon]

Now, if you can scale it up or modify it for PC's as crew on capital ships, you'll be set.

Well, I think you can do something similar; you can assume that until the boarding parties climb aboard the floating hulk, the PC's are still alive, though if the ship is busted up that bad I might have them roll to avoid a wound or two.  If you want to make sure someone is dead, you have to go find the body.

Now it's also fun to have ships explode, to have countdowns before the reactor implodes, that kind of thing, but I wouldn't want them to happen on the impersonal scale of ship-to-ship combat.