SMS Cellphone Roleplay

[Marco]

The idea of a person providing template menu responses to 200 player requests per hour seems like a missapplicaiton of effort. Why not use a server?

-Marco

[greyorm]

Alright, so I'd pay .10 cents to basically say "Go West" until I knew what was out in that direction and could say "Go to the Fuzzlebush" instead of spending a couple bucks just looking randomly around and trying to figure out what to do. Hrm...sorry, I think I'd pass without something to keep me engaged and interested each step of the way, as there is in a Choose Your Own Adventure book.

And really...160 characters of text? That doesn't sound vaguely engaging, to me. How about you run us all through an example of play with three or four players -- a real, live, exactly as it was happening example, as though written exactly like a play-script, as exists in nearly every RPG manual known to man.

(You know the drill:
EXAMPLE OF PLAY
Bob: I climb the wall.
GM: Roll d10 + Strength.
Bob: 15.
GM: You easily clamber over the wall. You are now in the garden.)

Now, no commentary on "how that isn't like my game will play at all" -- I'm not interested, it's an example of the format I'd like to see in your response, not a supposition of the content of the response.

Thanks.

[KorbanDream]

Morning All! - (Don't you guys ever sleep?).

The idea of a person providing template menu responses to 200 player requests per hour seems like a missapplicaiton of effort. Why not use a server?
-Marco

Answer: Because of these three...

01) sms server program - Circa £3'500.00
02) Then I'd be laptop bound (and my laptop only has 2hrs batt life?).
02b) Which means an external batt pack which means briefcase and if I'm gonna be weighed down with all that I'd be better off on a desktop and then I'm office bound?!
03) I can't find one (sms server) I like, (or it's price)...?

However: If I could find a messaging program that has message rules like outlook express for the palm then I truly am laughing...
(Example of Message Rules: Read Message X1 body content, If body contains XX move message to folder X and reply with message X2 - Outlook Express seems to have what I'm looking for almost perfectly but I can't seem to find one for the Palm or Pocket PC...?).

Greyorm.
Hi. I've got a journey planner system for most of the games which set out random encounters, accidents and other variables.

In Universe the JP sets out what, if anything, will happen, ie; how many encounters and their reaction to the player's circumstance, etc.
Accidents are things like parts of your craft malfunctioning and celestial weather warnings etc. (Celestial Weather also includes non-orbital debris and is a bonus as much as a danger, when salvage is concerned).

When I said that if you type in a known location and then start the journey, I didn't mean you were magically teleported to it, I meant the random encounters were calculated based on the length of the journey.
Some trips can take years (game-time) and the encounters could amount to quite a bit more than "Just enough to keep you interested"...

As for the play example, I'll have a deep dig, I haven't played a proper universe game in over a year now, (concentrating on other games and a move across the country)...?

[KorbanDream]

Rough example of someone going to a trade counter from docking...

========================
Welcome to EDU019.
Please be advised a visitors pass
is valid for 96 hours.
Access is granted to:
01: Enrollment.
02: PZ Customs.
03: Commercial Deck 01.

================
(Player Chooses 03).
================

Commercial Deck 01.
Where would you like to go?
01: Katenya.
02: Traidcom Portal.
03: Trade Counter.
04: Passager Lounge.
05: Other...?

==========================
(Player Chooses 03: Trade Counter)
==========================

Welcome says the merchant offering
you a cargo manalog. On screen,
the manalog offers you the following:
01: Buy Cargo.
02: Sell Cargo.
03: Salvage Trade.

=====================
You want me to continue...?
=====================

This is the best available example I can think of without going into the game's world detail and explaining every element?
The terms used would be explained within the Basepack (Character management pack), issued to all new members...

Hope this clears any misconceptions.

Greyorm.
Simultaneous play would be a repeat of the above per player. Any interaction between players would come over as storyline, (For example; how do you know the merchant above isn't played by a human and not just an npc...?), this way I get npc's with live emotional content behind them. Direct interaction between two human players occurs through the storyline and the only giveaway as to wether it's a human or npc is if they're standing next to you, playing with their mobile...?!

[Marco]

Hi KorbanDream,

Brief examination through Google suggests there are many free SMS server solutions of one sort or another (I readily accept that they may not meet your needs for one reason or another--one seems to send only "30 messages at a time"--but that hardly seems a limiting factor for you). Using them would require some programming skill (although it doesn't look seriously difficult to me--I found one with a Java API).

I would then make the input and output automatic, plug the computer into a wall and be "up" 24 hours.

I understand if you lack the programming skills--but if you felt this was going to pay enough to get you on your palm during the majority of the day, I think it's safe to say you could hire someone and have them create a tool for you to inter templates--as well as an interface to allow human, custom, interaction when you are awake/you feel like it.

-Marco

[KorbanDream]

I would then make the input and output automatic, plug the computer into a wall and be "up" 24 hours.

Hi. The problem I have with servers is that the game HAS to be structured around server entry and not server entry based on gameplay.
An example of this is that nearly every location has a trade counter, (sometimes more than one?), true I could use the game location addresses to log the players location and then have all template links running parallel but then every location would end up looking the same (and boring the heck out of Greyorm, hehe!). ie; option two is the same type of location at address 1, 5, 500, 10'000 etc...? - All leading to say the intro message at the trade counter?

When it comes down to the mechanics of the game, (the boring bits like moving around and descriptions etc, anything not combat or stat related), what would work the best would have to be OE's Message Rules and I think I read something about series 60 mobiles are able to interpret AT Commands! - Message rules on your phone at last!

Indeed a server would be easiest in terms of programming but at the same time if the pc based server was to send me every option other, I'd also have to track at least the last five or so of that player's game to find what option other actually is? - Similar to turning up late at a table-top game, (What's everyone doing?)...

So, although it'll be doing my eyesight in, the easiest, cheapest and most responsive way of doing it, is to have me as the rules server processing each message individually... Sigh!?

[Marco]

I would then make the input and output automatic, plug the computer into a wall and be "up" 24 hours.

Hi. The problem I have with servers is that the game HAS to be structured around server entry and not server entry based on gameplay.

I don't understand this--can you give me an example of what this problem is?

An example of this is that nearly every location has a trade counter, (sometimes more than one?), true I could use the game location addresses to log the players location and then have all template links running parallel but then every location would end up looking the same (and boring the heck out of Greyorm, hehe!). ie; option two is the same type of location at address 1, 5, 500, 10'000 etc...? - All leading to say the intro message at the trade counter?

What does "have all template links running parallel" mean? Why not have each location just have a specific that can be extended by special circumstances?

I mean, if they look different, they look different--if they look the same ... they look the same.

I'm missing something here.
-Marco

[KorbanDream]

Ahem. Yeah I wrote that under the lack of influence of Caffeine? - Sorry?

What I meant was that most server based games only have a three way option response like left, right and back or something similar.
A virtual pet game has a very limited set of defined options like feed, clean, heal etc. But in an rpg, tangents tend to happen more and there's very rarely ever anything that's that straight forward agreed?

Running all the pre-written messages parallel to each other. So that wether you're in Epsilon or Ganymede, Trade Port or Sino it makes no difference in the content of the message. If you enter a trade counter you get the same message accross the map as an intro to the trade counter.

Like I said, it makes it damn boring and very sub-standard to what the game actually is.

I could just make a set of bog standard messages that are basically nothing more than "you are here" & "Your options are" and have mini-adventures instead of full blown scenarios and whack it all on a server and have done with it BUT...

(Once on a server the idea of tangents and element x could become quite hard to implement on a changed daily basis as well?)...

I've been addicted to the idea that rpg's are NOT just a set of lists and tables and a fairly half-hearted storyline since I first played Cyberpunk in the 80's. At their heart contains a dedicated chaos theory with random tangents, twists, turns and the unexpected all designed by their creator to encourage imagination and inspiration.
Therefore, I am prepared to work hard to add element x to my games to give them that extra touch of realism. Some may argue I'm going over the line a bit with this stubborness and that I should just throw it on a server and make money, (Namely my partner?), but the enjoyment of others is the reason why I wanna do it live!

[Marco]

Well, I still don't get it. I mean, I see no reason that each area couldn't be specially described, have it's on menus, and dynamically change them during the game based on input from other players, a game-master superuser, and random events.

I'm guessing there's still stuff I don't understand.

I mean, have you ever played Infocom games? I realize they don't have menus--but everything in there is different and unique to that location.

-Marco

[Doug Ruff]

Hi KorbanDream,

I've been lurking his thread for a while, trying to get my head around how this project would work in practice.

I'm thinking of three possible models, please feel free to tell me I've missed the point by limiting what you are trying to achieve to this list:

1) The C-Y-O-A model - you set a starting location (and quest?) for the player, and give them a description of their situation. They then have a fixed number of options (1 - Fight Orc. 2 - Negotiate with Orc. 3 - Flee to location X. 4 - Cast a spell.) They choose an option, this triggers the next 'location' which is sent to them. Just like a Fighting Fantasy gamebook, except you could have some standard commands ('rest', 'drink potion') that could be used in addition to selecting a menu option.

The main advantage of this model is that you could run this from a server without human moderation. I believe that a game of this type was attempted way back, using the Fighting Fantasy licence, but using standard telephones and a 'call minding' system which spoke the locations to you.

The main disadvantage is lack of player choice - it's not an RPG, it's an electronic game book.

2) Human moderated, player uses SMS to send each action they will take. ('I go to the bazaar and buy a new sword', 'I try to climb the wall and enter the palace through a window.'

Main advantage here is the much greater choice the player has.

There are two disadvantages here and IMO they are both 'dealbreakers'. One is that you need to moderate every single move the player makes. The second is that the cost to the player would be obscene.

3) The 'play by mail' option. The player submits a 'turn' by SMS, this would include multiple actions and much broader plans. (I scout the goblin camp, attempting to kill any guards using my bow. I then ride into the middle of the camp, setting the tents on fire and rescuing the princess in the confusion. If I am wounded heavily, I will flee.

You moderate this and send a response based on your knowledge of the situation and the character's abilities.

A bit like the PBM game Saturnalia (and many others, I'm sure.)

The advantage is that you can cover much more ground in one SMS exchange. You lose a bit of character freedom, but not much.

One disadvantage is, as before, you have to moderate the turns and each turn will take longer for you to process (meaning more work and less profit for you!)

The much bigger disadvantage is that Play by Mail and Play by Email games already do this sort of thing much better and have a much longer heritage.

So although SMS is a new medium for roleplaying, I'm not sure that there is anything in the actual design of your game that is new, and hasn't already been done better in another medum.

So far, the only real benefit I can see is revenue - in England people will spend a remarkable amount of their money on SMS messaging and download services. I am assuming that in order for this money to come your way, you wil actually have to rent one of the 'premium' SMS numbers, and will need to set your own tariff in order to recoup this money. Let's say that this is a modest 25p.

The C-Y-O-A model becomes instantly unviable at this point. It would cost several pounds to finish even the most basic adventure, and for that amount of money you would be better off selling a gamebook as a downloadable program (Have you considered this, by the way?)

This really leave PBM as the only viable option. However, I'm not sure how large a market you could attract, as PBM isn't a mass-market activity, although you could raise the fees above 25p and still remain competitive.

Hope the above is useful without being too harsh. I'd be happy to discuss this with you further, either through this post or by PM.

Regards,

Doug

[erithromycin]

I'm intrigued by the project, but, like Doug, I'm somewhat unconvinced about the potential of it logistically.

What concerns me a little more, however, is not the process of playing the game, but what's going to be done in the process of playing. Some games function well with minimal information transmission - chess is a classic example, but it's also got quite a quantity of information storage, in the form of the board, and a record of past actions.

How you address this is just one of my concerns - the second is what meeting these challenges, on your side, or on the players' side, is all in aid of. You could run the game as a set of look-up tables - leaving description of locations and events to a pamphlet or something that you send out to competitors, but then you're talking about a CYOA again, and I can see that that's not what you're after. So you're after the flexibility of response that writing each one will give, and all I can say is that it'll be a) more work than you imagine, however much work you imagine, and b) almost impossible to regulate - you have an advantage in that the maximum size of a player submission is regulated - no tremendously convoluted plans to wrap your head around, but also no real ability to go completely into depth. Unless there's a shared information space ("You see a TERM", etc.) you're going to need to put things into context, and that's context you won't have room for because of the medium.

If it's going to work, it's going to have to be small, and compact, which seems to me to complicate the issue of how you'll make it work as something where players have a wealth of options.

Ignoring the business of how it'll work, my main question is this:

What are players' characters expected to be doing? You seem to be focusing at the moment on how you'll turn what a player says into what a players' character does within the gameworld, which is a vital part of system, but, well, where's the rest of it? What you're concentrating on at the moment is handled in most table-top games by talking, and that's not the whole of a thing, is it?

[KorbanDream]

Morning All!

Doug Ruff.
Hi! - I'm afraid to tell you but... I belive it's a corruption of all three models you describe. I've tried placing it in a single category but it just won't have it. See If you can define it any better, here's the main elements...
(Try to ignore the sms side as I only started transfering it to sms about a year and a half ago...).

1 - Open ended character management. Control your character as though he/she was actually alive, monitoring when he/she need's to eat, sleep and in some cases, breathe? - (Nothing new to rpg's).

2 - Stat based play. Over the years, (and more recently due to sms restrictions), I've shrunk everything I can into a stat. The character has 15, a craft has 21, a firearm has 6 etc... Also the reason I invented a BasePack for it (which really is nothing more than a twenty-six A5 page booklet full of inventory control and stat management?).

3 - Total interaction - Nothing really different from any other game I suppose?

4 - Twin gameplay. A scenario based game and a lifeplay. This is where you just exist, earn cash, make a living etc. The way you enter a scenario is through this medium, (As in you stumble upon it ie; listening to someone in a bar or...).

I've seen it working. and it works, very well as a 'hobby' with a group of friends but for the game to 'grow' it needs a larger audience, therefore I need to go commercial. My original plan was to have a membership scheme where members get a rebate on their messages. But by having a membership system I can only run with so many members per month which means I need to charge around the £30 marker, (£1.00 per day). The good news is that I can easily reimburse the message costs if someone is prepared to actually pay the membership?
(BTW; the reimbursement is based on 4 sms per day, 112 per month or £11.20 @ 0.10p per sms) - I'm really only giving them back their own money but ?

Incidently, I'd love to discuss ANY approach to an alternative medium... As I've been calling this an rpg for years but I've always felt that it's not really an rpg, I mean just because a game has character management, stats and a voiceover doesn't automatically make it an rpg right?


erithromycin. -(Hmm?).
The main reason I invented this was as an aid for kids to learn how to budget, (money management), their pocket money. I'd say at least fourty percent of the game's smaller scenario's involve needing a larger craft upgrade when they clearly don't have the cash, leaving the question how do I earn enough? - Money management.
The main go here, do this side of the game is entirely up to them.
The best way to describe it is soul hopping, you place your soul in the character's body and imagine you're there right? (as with every rpg).
I've set the ground work, I've also set triggers throughout the entire map.
These triggers are what set scenario's in motion, ie; Messiah 415a (Pirate faction), place an Envocon, (Environmental Construction) under embargo, player character has the choice to either go kick butt or ignore it as a not my problem? - You are just free to roam but with a set of added limitiations, much like the real world.

Marco.
Could you point me in the direction of some of those free servers please as I've been trawling the web for the past xx months trying to find one that follows OE's message rules and haven't found one...
(Thanks in advance)...


Hope that helps a little...?

[Tobias]

Thank you for your answers, Korban. I am still skeptical, but it's wonderful to see you're trying to be constructive and get this things to work. So would I actually, which is why I'm critical.

Doug's comments (and those of others) make a lot of sense to me. Your example has shown me you can have a somewhat engaging dialogue with 160 characters (let's say I was pleasently surprised - it ain't shakespeare, but it doesn't need to be), but that means that some of the forms (like this one:)

3) The 'play by mail' option. The player submits a 'turn' by SMS, this would include multiple actions and much broader plans. (I scout the goblin camp, attempting to kill any guards using my bow. I then ride into the middle of the camp, setting the tents on fire and rescuing the princess in the confusion. If I am wounded heavily, I will flee.

Aren't possible within one SMS. Multiple would be possible, of course, but then I think you're just using the wrong medium for the game (just use PBeM - which will become easier and easier with Palms like you want to do with SMS anyway).

So you're 'stuck' with shorter messages.

I'm going to try to see whether I can build how this would work, hypothetically.

Say, you (somehow) get 100 players to start with. You'll want to update them a few times a day - say, at 0900, 1300, 1700, and 2100 (you're human, you've gotta sleep and do social stuff as well). You give all players a 1 hour 'window' to SMS you in (otherwise you'll not be able to return an answer on time). In this our, you kick back and do nothing. Then, after the hour, you skim those 100 SMSes. Say it takes you about 30 seconds each to look at them, and see whether they are 'standard' or 'special' (and, since you want RPG, let's say about 30% are non-standard). So you're one more hour in. Then, you spend 2 minutes a piece on the special SMSes to reply to them (1 more hour) and you have 1 hour left to do the remaining 70 SMS'es, which is basically you getting a fairly standard description (from your DB, I should hope) for the new situation they are in.

Typing this, it occurs to me you might want to have a seperate cost for 'normal' or 'special' message handling - say a regular user is allowed to make 1 in 5 SMS'es 'special' without incurring extra cost - that would get your response time down as well.

I'm not clear what your system for outgoing SMSs is, but I sure as hell hope you're not using the phone keys and typing each reply out by hand that way - I'd really want a database to cut'n'paste replies with. This might drop the customisation of the response a little, but you also have to consider the opposite point - consistency. If things aren't somewhat consistent, users will not trust your responses or believe they have a real impact on the proceedings.

Note that you're now getting up at 0600, and working 12 hours a day. If 100 people are using your system at 50% intensity, at a cost of 10eurocents a message, you're getting in 100*4*.10*.50 = 20 euro's a day. One month, about 600 euro's. (To be fair, if it's at 50% intensity, your work load should also drop, so your income could be double. So call it 1200 euro a month).

Will that work? To make more, you'd have to either increase your income per SMS, increase the number of users while keeping turn-around time the same, or speed up your turn-around time.

I'd like to see you make this thing work, don't get me wrong.

To be fair, I wouldn't play this game - getting 4 SMSs a day, in a game where I knew there were such a ton of options, players, etc., i would feel lost, wouldn't get to make a (Gamist) impact, have to rely too much on my own imagination to make the world come alive and fun (and no knowledge of whether my fantasy matches your concept of the world). That, at least is my feeling. I mention this not to discourage you from your idea (I think it's pretty cool), but to show you where my answers are coming from - I may be overly critical because I wouldn't actually want to play the game.

[KorbanDream]

Tobias.
Your estimation is actually quite spot on!
In fact the only difference between what's in my Cashflow Forecast and what you said was to include an external payment system. Instead of having any revenues generated from the sms, have an additional cost of membership and have the sms costs repaid back to the players from that revenue... Merely a matter of playing with the figures at the end of the day but the revenue generated is actually more per message this way.

A flat rate of say £30 GBP is a more pleasing to 'the public' as quite often they know they're being stung when it comes to 35p per message BOTH ways! - Besides, If I opt for the membership scheme, I don't have to buy a gateway server and end up in 10's of thousands in debt before I even start on a single character...

The other reason for choosing the sms format was that in my mind it fit perfectly with the Labyrinth system.
(Labyrinth is an easter-egg hunt style prize system, ie; walk into a room and you are greeted with a " You have won a prize!" sms, merely a marketing gimmick but effective enough to increase the player base!).

Outgoing sms. - For anyone reading this, DON'T ever try to send a lot of sms before templating them first, it really hurts your wrist!
I used to have an old Nokia 9000 Communicator and it had a keyboard and file and folder management of sms'. I just replaced this with a standard mobile and a palm. The palm is what's going to hold the sms as the default program operates in more or less the same way...
(Yes cut n paste is the only feasible way but finding a database program that allows sms storage is starting to look bleak?)

As for the feeling of being lost, if you did then I would say that would by my fault as the "GM" (for want of a better title?), for not defining it clearly enough... The basics are described at the start of the game, (only three sms), as an intro, if you like, to your new character.

As it turns out, I think I've found the server I've been looking for. It should fit the requirements of all the games except for Universe which I think the only options for it are to bring it out live, turn it into a 3d game, (no chance?) or have a really, really large bonfire in my back yard...?

(I think I'm gonna go have a bath with a couple of razor blades after this...?) ;-/

[KorbanDream]

1) The C-Y-O-A model - you set a starting location (and quest?) for the player, and give them a description of their situation. They then have a fixed number of options (1 - Fight Orc. 2 - Negotiate with Orc. 3 - Flee to location X. 4 - Cast a spell.) They choose an option, this triggers the next 'location' which is sent to them. Just like a Fighting Fantasy gamebook, except you could have some standard commands ('rest', 'drink potion') that could be used in addition to selecting a menu option.

The main advantage of this model is that you could run this from a server without human moderation. I believe that a game of this type was attempted way back, using the Fighting Fantasy licence, but using standard telephones and a 'call minding' system which spoke the locations to you.

The main disadvantage is lack of player choice - it's not an RPG, it's an electronic game book.

2) Human moderated, player uses SMS to send each action they will take. ('I go to the bazaar and buy a new sword', 'I try to climb the wall and enter the palace through a window.'

What if your mixed the two?
Had a fighting fantasy system of fixed options with an included " Option Other...? " That allowed the player to choose his/her own next move if they didn't like any of the fixed ones?

Technically it's still an e-game book but with a more interactive storyline and a much larger outcome. If you can imagine that that's what I've been trying to do with Universe then you'll get more of an idea how the game plays out...

Sorry, I misread what you were saying.
(It's amazing what a marlboro and a black coffee can do?)  :-)