consequences of magic redux

[madelf]

Awhile back I brought up some vague notions in this thread...
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12009&highlight=
where a bunch of you helped me sort through my ideas. I found it very helpful.

I've been doing some more thinking about the whole idea, and started trying to refine it a little bit more to figure out what I actually want to do, and I thought I'd throw the thing out again to see what kind of thoughts people have.

Here's my thoughts so far:

Shadow is the essence of magic.

Shadow leaves a stain upon your heart and soul.

The more you use magic, the more your heart darkens. Use too much magic, and you'll loose yourself to the Shadow, becoming something other than human. You'll become something dark, something evil. Only by resisting the Shadow, and embracing the goodness in yourself, your humanity, can you redeem yourself from the darkness in your heart.

But magic is power, and power is a very addictive drug. And the more Shadow you possess, the darker your heart, the better you are able to access magic and the more powerful you are. If you wish to work in the ways of magic, you must give up some of the Light. To use magic, you must welcome the darkness into your soul.

Even if you avoid magic, if you want to survive, sometimes you're going to get your hands dirty. Sometimes you're going to have to do things that are violent, cruel, or even evil. These acts also call to the Shadow, and darken your heart.

You know the touch of the Shadow already, you've felt the darkness wrap around your heart. You've felt the power it brought with it. You know the thrill, and the danger. Now the question is, how long will you be able to hold off the Shadow, how long will it be till the darkness in your heart expands and swallows up the person you are, making you something else.

(Everyone must create a background story explaining the circumstances when they were first driven to embrace the Shadow. Often this will be a free choice, but sometimes it may be done accidentally. In a time of great stress or fear, the desperate person will grasp at anything to save themselves. And the Shadow always waits.)

Use of magic... increases Shadow.
Acts of evil, violence, or harm to others... increases Shadow.
Acts of kindness, good deeds, or heroic sacrifice for the sake of others... reduces Shadow.
If you want to lift the darkness from your heart, you need to be a hero. If you want to save your soul, you need to save the world.

(For tracking this, I'm thinking of something akin to the Karma system from the original Marvel Superheroes Game, establishing a guide for what sorts of actions increase or lower Shadow, but applying it as an instant modifier rather than as an advancement mechanic)

If an "evil" act is performed for "good" reason (killing someone to defend an innocent, for instance) then there should be method for possibly resisting the Shadow taint. An act of outright, self-serving evil does not allow resistance. The taint is automatic.

Acts of evil are easy. Anyone can be evil, anytime.
Good can be a little tougher. If you have a dark heart (your Shadow score exceeds your Wisdom score or some such thing), good can be very difficult indeed. You must overcome your dark nature if you wish to do good. This means rolling over your Shadow score. Naturally, the darker your heart and the higher your Shadow score, the harder it becomes to do good, and the harder it gets to redeem yourself. And the easier it gets to do evil.

Failing your Shadow resistance:
A player may intend to perform an act of good, but when the scene plays out he might discover that his character has instead acted in an evil manner due to the strength of the darkness in his soul. The character has become evil and even his best intentions may have disastrous consequences.  Yet his only hope for redemption is to keep trying.

Each time a character fails his resistance to the Shadow and performs an evil act, he is changed by that act. He begins to take on otherworldly traits which mark him physically. At this point he becomes what is known as a Changeling. The darkness in his soul has begun to show its mark on his physical form as well. Changeling traits may sometimes be beneficial, and sometimes detrimental, but they will always set him apart from humanity. Unlike the metaphysical taint of Shadow, which can be reduced,  the physical traits of a Changeling are permanent.


Comments?

[clehrich]

Wouldn't this be fairly easy to model with Sorcerer?  I'm not saying that it's a bad idea or something, but can you explain why you don't want to use that system, or what it doesn't do for you, or something?  I'm just not seeing the difference, which probably means I'm missing something in your scheme.

[Andrew Martin]

Wouldn't this be fairly easy to model with Sorcerer?  I'm not saying that it's a bad idea or something, but can you explain why you don't want to use that system, or what it doesn't do for you, or something?  I'm just not seeing the difference, which probably means I'm missing something in your scheme.

I agree, the setting looks a lot like Sorcerer or one of it's supplements.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Let's get away from the whole Sorcerer topic, because it's too specific. What I'm seeing is a very general description of a class of game design which includes many representatives.

The idea = dwindling resources based on personal actions, risking dire consequences at the bottom.

Call of Cthulhu doesn't count because it doesn't matter what the character does, it's what he sees. Cyberpunk, Vampire, Kult, and Obsidian do count. Sorcerer counts too. Tons of other games include the same idea in a kind of ape-Vampire way.

Here's my question, Calvin: do higher values of Shadow do either or both of the following?

1. Higher Shadow = more likelihood of performing Shadow-increasing acts. By "more likelihood" I mean game rules, not expected player-tendencies. In Cyberpunk, for instance, low Humanity means the person must be played differently, just as with Sanity in Call of Cthulhu.

2. Higher Shadow = lowered chance of resisting Taint in later checks. Does a high-Shadow character roll differently from a low-Shadow one in this situation?

Both of these are the case for most of the games which utilize this idea, although neither applies to Sorcerer. I mention it here only to clarify the options within this idea.

My real question is this: Calvin, what kind of feedback are you looking for? I read over the old thread, and bluntly, you are not suggesting anything that hasn't been done by a ton of other games. If all you need is a system for that, then my two points above are the top priority for consideration, I think.

Best,
Ron

[Vaxalon]

Failing your Shadow resistance:
A player may intend to perform an act of good, but when the scene plays out he might discover that his character has instead acted in an evil manner due to the strength of the darkness in his soul. The character has become evil and even his best intentions may have disastrous consequences. Yet his only hope for redemption is to keep trying.

I don't like this, don't like it at all.  I *hate* it when a game takes away my autonomy.

Instead of talking about what ACTUALLY happens, why not talk about what INWARDLY happens?

A good act, done for evil motives, doesn't help your soul at all.  If you help that little old lady across the street in order to earn brownie points, you don't earn brownie points.

[madelf]

I don't doubt you could do something like this with Sorceror.
Maybe it even is re-inventing Sorceror, but I doubt it. I've read a good number of the discussions about Sorcerer and I don't think I'm looking for the same thing. As I outlined in the first thread, there are a number of elements in that game which I don't think are what I'm looking for.
Actually from what I've read in discussions (though I haven't ordered the game yet to check it out) what I'm looking for sounds more like Dust Devils than sorceror. Except for the escalating of the "Devil" which I'm looking for.

I'm not sure of the other games suggested, but Vampire definitely does not model what I'm trying to do here. Or if it does, it doesn't work.

Ron,

To respond to your specific questions:
1) Higher shadow definitely does mean greater likelyhood of doing shadow-increasing acts. As outlined, the higher your shadow, the harder it is to overcome your natural inclination to do bad things, you must actually resist your shadow to do good. Otherwise you do evil, and any evil act increases your shadow. It's a vicious circle, or whirlpool, sucking you into darkness.

2)All characters are tainted, to some extent. A character with greater taint doesn't roll differently, per se, but they might have to reach a higher target number based on the amount of taint they have. This isn't something I've got pinned down yet, but that's the way I'm leaning, I think.

As to what feedback I'm seeking... any I can get, I guess. This is still in an embryonic state and I'm still just trying to get an outside perspective to help me wrap my head around this whole idea. I think I've narrowed it down a good bit from the previous thread & I'm looking to narrow it down a bit more. Recommendations for games that are similar are good, likes and dislikes are good. Points that I need to focus on are good.

It's all good.
:)

Vaxalon,

I'm kind of surprised at your reaction to "Failing your Shadow resistance."
It didn't seem a great deal different to me than failing a willpower save or such, a mechanic in any number of games that can make a character's precise action different than it's intent.

I'm not talking about walking the character through the adventure entirely against the player's will. I'm talking about the little things. You meant to just subdue an opponent, but somehow the gun went off. You were trying to heal someone and harmed them instead. You wanted to knock that guy out, but you suddenly realise you beat him to a bloody pulp. It's meant to model a person losing control, going a little too far when they didn't mean to, allow the character to be shocked at what he's capable of doing without realizing he had such darkness in him.

Your point about doing good for evil motives is a good one. But I'm not sure I see trying to redeem oneself as an evil motive.
And to look at it another way, does the "cosmic balance" care about motive? A good act, an evil act, they cancel each other out. If you do good, you make the world a better place, reducing the grip of shadow on our world by that tiny little bit.  Does it matter what motivated you to do it?


I'll think on your comments though.

Thanks all!

[madelf]

Instead of talking about what ACTUALLY happens, why not talk about what INWARDLY happens?

I just realized the answer to this.

I don't want to talk about it. If I wanted to sit down with my friends and discuss psychology and the nature of evil, I could.

But this is a game. I want to do it. I want to address what actually happens (in the game) and let you think about how that makes your character feel.

I think that maybe that's almost the whole point.

After all, as I got into in the other thread, I can tell you how your character is feeling. I can tell you what your character's motivation should be. I can tell you anything. That isn't necessarily going to change a thing in how the game plays out. It wouldn't be any different than a hundred other games with character quirks. I need a mechanic that pro-actively influences the character (and the player) to really think differently.

As an extreme example, I think the first time they "snap out of it" to find a knife in their hand and a room full of dead bodies... they'll be thinking differently. If nothing else, they'll have to think about the consequences of being a murderer, if not about the actions that brought them to that point. Can you still redeem yourself, and become a good person again after something like that? It's going to be tough, but it should be an interesting struggle.

[Vaxalon]

Don't be surprised at my reaction.  I'm VERY big into player independence.  I absolutely ABHORRED Pendragon for the way it robbed players of it constantly.

There's only one circumstance under which I would allow it; and that's if the player got to choose what his alternative was.  "Okay, so I couldn't heal the princess... hm, need to do something evil instead.   Alright, he takes the opportunity to cop a feel, and says, "Now hold still while I connect to your karmic centers.  What?  No, really, this is all part of the spell.  Fine, then, I won't heal you... and on your head be it."

[Vaxalon]

As an extreme example, I think the first time they "snap out of it" to find a knife in their hand and a room full of dead bodies...

This, to me, is anathema.  It's the ultimate robbery of what being a player is all about.

[madelf]

Vaxalon,

Okay, I'll try not to be surprised in the future.

I could see allowing the player to choose how the character's action went wrong.
It wouldn't need to be about taking all control away from the player, so much as forcing them to acknowledge that (from the character's perspective) , I am not the person I thought I was. Then the player can react to that as they see fit.

I think exactly how it goes wrong is not all that important. Maybe some sliding guideline for severity (how evil an act must be taken), dependant on the level of Shadow, might be in order. But leaving the final choice of how to play it out up to the player would be fine. (Actually it would save the GM from having to think up all the altered outcomes himself, so it's doubly a good idea)

The ultimate robbery...
Hmm. I can see your point.
But what if the game is not about what happened in those moments when the player was not in control, but more about his reaction to the situation afterwards? What if the game is all about the "Oh my god, what have I done" reaction that takes place afterwards? What if the whole premis of the game is, "Shit... I'm evil. What the hell do I do now? And will it get worse? And.... do I like it?"

Because that is what the game is about.

Again, I don't see any problem with the player choosing the precise actions of the character, but I believe the nature of those events need to be beyond the control of the character and controlled by the mechanics of the game.

Think of it this way...

In a game combat situation, your character draws a bow & shoots off an arrow. He has a target, a specific intention in mind. The game mechanics provide the mechanism that decides whether that arrow hits its mark or goes wide of the target.

What I'm talking about (at the root) isn't really any different. The character has a specific intention in mind, but it's up to the mechanics to determine whether he carries through on that intention as he wished to, or if something goes wrong. It's just moving the mechanism from the character's physical actions to his mental functions. Is your hand steady and your eye true? Will you hit the target or miss? Is your will strong and heart pure?  Will you do the right thing, or are you a little insane today?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Fred (Vaxalon), please bear in mind that this thread isn't about whether you would like or play the game. It's not an opinion poll. The question is whether you can help Calvin with his stated goals. If your preferences suggest that you can't, then it's best to recognize that this thread isn't for you, and to let it proceed on its own.

Calvin, since you're leaning toward a "yes" on my two points, then I strongly suggest becoming very familiar with Vampire in all of its editions and revisions, Aberrant, Kult (both editions if possible), and Obsidian. You'll see the following issues.

1. How inevitable is increasing (in your terms) Shadow.

2. How rapid is it. Furthermore, how exponential is the increase.

3. Rate of Shadow gain relative to "cleansing," which as you describe, would be a matter of slowing the rate of gaining Shadow rather than reversing the trend entirely.

4. The severity of the character-play restrictions or characterizations imposed by higher Shadow. Bear in mind that many people find over-severe to be de-protagonizing and ignore them during play. (If the character's no fun at halfway to 0, then why bother playing him all the way there?)

For instance, if a character does an action, and that action isn't especially characteristic of his high Shadow score, can the GM or anyone say "Hey, you have high Shadow, you have to do this other thing instead"? And if so, does the character have to make Taint-resistance roll for doing this other thing?

5. Authority over gaining Shadow. Is it a GM thing to say when the resistance roll happens? Can the GM or anyone impose penalties to resistance attempts?

Again, I think this set of techniques or procedures is very, very common since Cyberpunk transformed Sanity (response to fear/horror) into Humanity (character actions). You can find nearly any combination of degrees for my #1-5 above.

I suggest, however, that answering "yes" to my two previous questions puts the game into a category that will play exactly the same as any of those pre-existing games, and considering that one of them is Vampire, you might be planting in an already well-claimed field.

Best,
Ron

[Vaxalon]

Fred (Vaxalon), please bear in mind that this thread isn't about whether you would like or play the game. It's not an opinion poll. The question is whether you can help Calvin with his stated goals. If your preferences suggest that you can't, then it's best to recognize that this thread isn't for you, and to let it proceed on its own.

As a matter of fact, it IS about what I (among others) think:

... I thought I'd throw the thing out again to see what kind of thoughts people have. ...

Back on track:

... What if the whole premis of the game is, "Shit... I'm evil. What the hell do I do now? And will it get worse? And.... do I like it?"

Then I think I would make it clear, up front, that players don't OWN the (for want of a better word) protagonist (rather than player) characters' minds, any more than they completely own the character's body in a traditional RPG.  There are a number of ways to accomplish this, but I find that the best way to take something away from a player, that is, complete control over his character, is to give something back.

In Skein, when a player's contribution to the game is rejected by the group, he gains a bonus die that he can hold onto and use to affect a random event (skill check, etc.) down the road, as a consolation.

Pendragon had no consolation for failing a virtue/vice roll.  If you failed a roll, the GM described what happened, and the player was pretty much cut out of the loop.  I began thinking, "Hey, what am I here for, anyways? The gamemaster could do all this stuff by himself."  It was pretty frustrating.

PC insanity (which is really what we're talking about, here) is always tough to handle in an RPG without GM confiscation of the player's control.  Have you considered assigning the shadow (essentially, an alternate, insane personality) to another player, so that if a player blows the role, at least the control isn't going to the gamemaster?

[Ron Edwards]

Fred,

This is a moderator warning. I'm telling you publicly as well as privately - do not post in defiance. That was a flame.

Now, is the rest of your post acceptable? Yes, it is - it's based on helping Calvin think about his design. That's wonderful. It's the only reason why your post isn't going into the Inactive File.

Please continue this discussion.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

Pendragon had no consolation for failing a virtue/vice roll. If you failed a roll, the GM described what happened, and the player was pretty much cut out of the loop. I began thinking, "Hey, what am I here for, anyways? The gamemaster could do all this stuff by himself." It was pretty frustrating.

Then your GM was playing wrong.

There are only 2 occassions in the game when the GM can call for a Virtue / Vice roll and enforce the decision on you as the player.

1) when the virtue / vice is 16 or higher.  At this point it is such a part of the nature of your character that you have difficulty acting any other way.  There IS consolation for this...you get Glory for it.  Each and every year like clockwork it churns out Glory for you.  Also if you have enough of these in the right combinations you get religious or chivalraic bonuses and powers.  Further there is no way to get and keep a score this high unless you the player actually want it that high and actively pursue keeping it there.  At any time you get sick of having to make these rolls it is extremely easy to drop your score below 16 and never have to make them again.

2) when the virtue / vice is being used as a surrogate skill.  Energetic is often used to see whether your character on guard duty remains alert.  Or Worldly can be used to see whether your character is sophisticated enough to appreciate that the wine comes from Italy and the Silk all the way from India.  

Other applications are largely voluntary.  You NEVER as a player have to roll your Just vs. your Arbitrary to see how you treat a misbehaving peasant...unless one of those scores is 16+.  Many players do this because the find it fun, but if the score is not 16+ you can behave as you will and simply earn a check on the appropriate side.



At any rate, aside from my need to disabuse people of erroneous notions many have about one of my favorite games, I think the above is a very pertinant concept to the issue at hand as described in the second half of the opening post.

Use of magic... increases Shadow.
Acts of evil, violence, or harm to others... increases Shadow.
Acts of kindness, good deeds, or heroic sacrifice for the sake of others... reduces Shadow.

In Pendragon use of Selfish increases Selfish.  Use of Cruelty increases Cruelty.  You could choose to have just 1 Virtue/Vice combination...Shadow; or you could break Shadow down into different component parts...what are the aspects of Shadow tainted behavior in your game.  Traditional Judeo-Christian vices/sins or something more specific to your world system?

If you're not familiar with the mechanics of Pendragon I'm happy to outline how they work in that system.

Acts of evil are easy. Anyone can be evil, anytime.
Good can be a little tougher. If you have a dark heart (your Shadow score exceeds your Wisdom score or some such thing), good can be very difficult indeed. You must overcome your dark nature if you wish to do good. This means rolling over your Shadow score.

In Pendragon this would be represented by having a Vice at 16+ as I described above.  Once you are selfish enough to be renown as selfish person (i.e. equivalent to having a "dark heart") than before you can perform a generous act the GM may require you to make a check against your Selfish / Generous (above Selfish or below Generous).

Failing your Shadow resistance:
A player may intend to perform an act of good, but when the scene plays out he might discover that his character has instead acted in an evil manner due to the strength of the darkness in his soul. The character has become evil and even his best intentions may have disastrous consequences. Yet his only hope for redemption is to keep trying.

There is no direct parallel to this in Pendragon, but it would be easy enough to do.  Whenever the Selfish character wants to do something Generous, but fails the roll the player could be allowed to then choose to succeed anyway (be Generous in that specific instance) in exchange for making matters worse in some other complicating fashion.

Each time a character fails his resistance to the Shadow and performs an evil act, he is changed by that act. He begins to take on otherworldly traits which mark him physically. At this point he becomes what is known as a Changeling. The darkness in his soul has begun to show its mark on his physical form as well. Changeling traits may sometimes be beneficial, and sometimes detrimental, but they will always set him apart from humanity. Unlike the metaphysical taint of Shadow, which can be reduced, the physical traits of a Changeling are permanent.

In Pendragon if your Virtues / Vices get high enough in certain combinations you acquire various powers.  Generally the combinations encourage high Virtues, but some of the Virtues of the various religions are actually considered Vices by Christians.  This would be an easy thing to adopt to Changelings.  X combination of Vices gives you the physical traits of an Imp.  Y combination of Vices gives you the physical traits of a Succubus (or whatever your world Changeling variants resemble).

[WiredNavi]

You might also want to look at Wraith: The Oblivion.

Incidentally, putting together some ideas that Vaxalon was talking about - if the game is all about the 'Oh, crap, what have I done?  Am I evil?' reaction, then whenever their character is 'taken' by some Shadow impulse and they lose control, you could give them some sort of bonus currency that represents their reflection on their situation.

Then let them use that token to resist a later Shadow roll (in which case it represents them acknowledging and actively fighting against the darkness in their heart).  They can also use the token to add to the result of an action which _they_ initiated, but which could be considered Shadowy (in which case it represents them accepting and deliberately using the power that the Shadow has given them).