[GroupDesign] - Mix Your Own Metaplot

[Sydney Freedberg]

What I'm hearing is that you are viewing "character advancement" as an increase in balance, rather than a linear increase in power

Not quite.

The original Fade/Burn mechanics I drafted assumed you were trapped: Any improvement in one meant a corresponding decline in the other, and some events were bad for both, but there was no way to improve both. "You can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game." Which was awfully bleak.

But what if it is possible to increase both -- at the individual level and the level of human civilization as a whole?

Let's say the two oppositions are between (1) Transcendence (knowledge, reason) vs. Humanity (passion, feeling) and (2) Freedom vs. Safety (or harmony, security, order, control whatever). Both dilemmas exist on both the individual level and the macro level. Let's further say that any of the four Values (Transcendence, Humanity, Freedom, Harmony) can increase without limit.

Things go awry when one Value is substantially greater than its opposing value: Transcendence overwhelms Humanity, or vice versa; Freedom overwhelms Safety, or vice versa. When such an imbalance between opposed Good Things occurs, then Fade, Burn, and other appropriate Bad Things (loss of free will? anarchy?) are incurred in proportion with the difference.

Or, mathematically,

Transcendence minus Humanity = Burn
Humanity minus Transcendence = Fade
Freedom minus Safety = Chaos
Safety minus Freedom = Stasis

(All terms are tentative!)

Now, since balance is always relative, it's possible to have it when all values are equally low or when all values are equally high: Transcendence 1 - Humanity 1 = Burn 0, but likewise Transcendence 100 - Humanity 100 = Burn 0. Which means, in theory, either an individual or a civilization can increase both opposedGood Things infinitely -- as long as it keeps them in balance with each other.

The catch, of course, is that as you get to higher and higher levels, proportionately small imbalances become more and more damaging. If you have Transcendence 2 and Humanity 1 -- a 100% difference in the two values -- then you take Burn 1, oh well. But if you have Transcendence 100 and Humanity 90 -- a mere 10% difference -- then you take Burn 10, ouch.

{EDIT: Note that for this to work, the bad effects can't be proportional, they have to stay the same severity for all levels of character, so 10 Burn still hurts someone with Transcendence 100 and Humanity 90, rather than being something that they can just shrug off like a high-level D&D character ignoring fireballs and hachets to the head.}
{EDIT 2: Likewise, the good effects increase in a linear manner. Transcendence 100 is way, way more full of knowledge and uncanny power than Transcendence 1; Humanity 90 is way, way more full of passion and emotional power than Humanity 1.}

But the beauty is that if you really struggle to maintain the balance, you can achieve the reconciliation of opposites at both the individual and global levels. Which is redemption. Which is a POWERFUL goal for a game/ending for a story.

[Kirk Mitchell]

On the idea of archivists making DAMN SURE that the center will hold, I think that there is enough room around that for other factions. That could be for example the overall goal or duty of the archivists, but they can also persue their own ends around that. And two archivists or archivist groups will not allways agree...

As for new threads, I think that a summary thread would be good. Something that concisely sums up all of the issues that have been presented and decided on.

I'll also cast my vote:

1) Dual timestreams sounds cool. I just hink that they can impact upon one another. I also say no to the finite intersections. There should be some limitations on the intersections, but schrodinger's war keeps the players subtle.

2) Freedom vs Happiness or whatever you end up calling it: I don't know. It depends on whether the focus is to be on the safety of humanity itself or the safety of something bigger.

3) Multiple factions: I think that players should be able to form their own factions depending on their achivist's viewpoints. Maybe examples of mindsets within the archivist communities and descriptions of how to form your own. But yes, multiple factions that are not based around kewl powers, but shared morals or views instead are a must.

And I agree that the Archivists, as we have imagined them, are going to take on this role. They are the guardians of True History - which still leaves open the possibility of arguments over what True History is.

Here for example could be one of the areas of contention between archivists, sort of like the arguments between monotheisic religions over the "One True God". They don't allways agree and soemtimes it gets bloody.

As for a more general Archivist, I think that Archivists should be the core idea, the custodians of True History. Within that there is plenty of room for factions and methods. Just because they are preserving True History (see above) doesn't mean that they do it in the same way (some might go nuts, some might be more subtle) or agree with each other.

Kirk

[Tobias]

Hmm, have you cheked your PMs? There's 4 suggestions from me there (unless you mean that you've only had 3 PMs.)

Also, should we feel free to discuss the vote here, or to make suggestions for other threads, or both?

(I think I'm having Comprehension Issues today - I'm still processing the Election result.)

I meant 3 PMs.

Feel free to discuss the vote, but AFAIK there's no 'nay' yet, correct?

I will post (some of) the suggestions for new threads here in about 6 hours (my time), and we can choose which ones to go on with from there.

Also, I don't think I can do justice to all the new stuff that's spawned (the axis, generally) with my own core right now, so that's on hold for a bit until the development direction is clear to me again (i.e., once the new threads are spawned).

I will say one thing though: these new threads will have a note: 'Nailing' or 'Gathering'. A 'Gathering' thread is to expand concepts, discuss issues, add stuff, a 'Nailing' thread focuses on taking all that is present at that time and reduce it down to it's essential mechanics without adding stuff to it.

[Andrew Morris]

I will say one thing though: these new threads will have a note: 'Nailing' or 'Gathering'. A 'Gathering' thread is to expand concepts, discuss issues, add stuff, a 'Nailing' thread focuses on taking all that is present at that time and reduce it down to it's essential mechanics without adding stuff to it.

Sounds like a great idea. Other than any outstanding votes (especially "no" votes), is there anything left to discuss on this thread?

[Tobias]

I think this thread has served well to:

1. Spawn the most common theory of an elastic human time (tunnel), with some 'key' events being harder to reach (needing 'unlocking' through earlier manipulation)

2. Spawn the thought of Axes (that is the plural of Axis?) as balancing factors and probably the vehicle to answer/work with Theme.

3. Give the concept of some factions that might exist.

I've received PMs from the more prolific contributers, and based on them, we're going to spawn some new threads. What I want from everyone is to write, of the number I am going to list below, which 3 they would want to adress most at this point, and what conclusion they see the thread reaching (in other words, when would you be satisfied the thread had worked). Please do it here, out in the open.

The options:

'Nailing'

- Nailing The Axes: Burn/Fade, Humanity/Transcendance, Freedom/Happiness, Free will
- Nailing Posession: Archivist & Host traits, & active posession
- Nailing Elastic human history and archivist time & the mechanics for changing time
- Nailing player urgency
- Nailing Names - glossary of game terms
- Nailing the great library

'Gathering'

- Factions
- Plothooks
- Working out 'base history'
- Publishing, writing, layout, art
- Nemesis options
- Themes
- How to FIGHT against the other factions
- What does this game feel like? Why is it fun to play? (!!!)

(Note that 'nailing' any of these core topics doesn't overrule the existence of options, as discussed before).

After people have written in, I'll update the index and spawn threads.

Edit: You can consider the three exclamation marks a minor hint on a thread I'd feel important. :)

[Doug Ruff]

"And the number of the counting shall be three..."

I second Tobias' subtle(!!!) suggestion that we address the feel of the play. May I also suggest that we do it in the same way as the Structured Game Design sticky at the top of this forum? I think we have enough of a shared perspective on what this game could look like to have a crack at this now.

As for two more:

1) I think that we are starting to Nail Possession in the other active thread. This may be optimistic, and based on my very biased opinion of the Presence mechanic - but can we take a closer look at that and see if it fits our purpose?

2) Nailing Elastic human history (and how to change it) seems a natural progression from what we've already laid down; it will also serve as fuel for some of the "gathering threads"

I think that, in general terms, this is a good time to Nail Some Things Down - we've had an explosion of activity on the boards (to think I used to complain about the lack of progress) and I think it would be a good idea to focus in for a while.

[Andrew Morris]

I think the "nailing" ideas would be more useful and productive at this time. So, I'm for:

Nailing Names
Nailing the Great Library
Nailing Possession

[Kirk Mitchell]

I think that nailing is also the most productive:

- Nailing The Axes: Burn/Fade, Humanity/Transcendance, Freedom/Happiness, Free will
- Nailing Posession: Archivist & Host traits, & active posession
- Nailing Elastic human history and archivist time & the mechanics for changing time

I think we should nail the mechanics first, let the names come later. The great library as a concept is finished, but the exact details can wait for later. And player urgency I believe can be pulled in either later or through the mechanics. If it is later, then we can fairly quickly nail why the players must be urgent as like the great library it is clear as a concept but the details aren't there yet. Let the mechanics come first for us to build on.

Afterwards the concept of factions should be addressed fairly soon, as well as the nemesis.

Kirk

[Michael Brazier]

"The three exclamation points stand for quality."

My votes:
1) Nailing Possession (and other Archivist/Host relations, if needed)
2) Nailing Elastic history (how to change time -- and the side effects)
3) Nailing the Great Library

... in that order.  The main reason for possession is affecting history, and one reason for affecting history is the state of the Library (AKA the society of Archivists.)  So when one of these items is nailed, that kicks off discussion of the next.

Dumirik, isn't the point of a "nailing" thread to take a concept that's clear in everyone's mind and get it expressed in a mechanic?

[Sydney Freedberg]

I'd favor

1

Nailing The Axes: Burn/Fade, Humanity/Transcendance, Freedom/Happiness, Free will

since this will be critical to mechanics both on the macro and micro levels; the details of Possession will probably be worked out as a consequence of the axes, rather than vice versa.

2.

- Nailing Elastic human history and archivist time & the mechanics for changing time

since this will be critical for the strategic/macro level of the game, which is more abstract and harder to visualize than individual level possesion .... although we may need to "nail the axes" first to know the framework in which we're doing this.

3.

'Gathering'... - What does this game feel like? Why is it fun to play? (!!!)

This is the one non-Nailing theme I'd focus on at this stage. And this is where (as Doug said) the Structured Game Design model is most relevant: We might do well to come up with (as Andrew did over in Advanced Archivism) some imaginary "transcripts" of play to get our motors firing on the kind of feel we want this to have -- which will help inform everything from mechanics to setting.

[Tobias]

Thanks all, unless any more votes come in, that's a wrap for this thread, at a nice 100 posts.

I'll put up the new threads this afternoon or tomorrw (my time, and it's 10 am here now).

[contracycle]

I would drive my nails into:

player urgency, the great library, and what it feels like to play.

On that last I would like to propose a sub-question: what do Archivists look like?  Do they tote gear around, and if so what is it?

[Tobias]

*urk*

work issues. it's going to be tomorrow, guys.

[Tobias]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Check the GroupDesign thread index (in my sig) for your fresh new threads.

Happy nailing!

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