[GroupDesign] - Mix Your Own Metaplot

[Sydney Freedberg]

(1) Archivist Burn

Annulling an Archivist's past definitely should not cause Fading..since it's a loss of human traits ...

Good point, Fade is the wrong choice for this....Perhaps the damage caused to an Archivist by altering their history is a better place for us to hang the "Archivist Burn" mechanic....

Agreed. In drafting up rules back in Nailing Mechanics, I'd originally been thinking of Burn as purely a Host issue, but then stumbled into needing Archivists to take Burn if they denied their residual humanity (i.e. Suppressed their human traits/passions). I hadn't thought of using that "Archivist Burn" mechanic to also reflect the loss of one's "anchor" in the past due to changes in the timestream; but I think that would work nicely.
That said, the individual-level aspects of this are probably an issue to take up in detail over in Advanced Archivism.


(2) That Darned Great Library

1) What is Archivist-Space like?
2) What does it look like to Archivists?
3) What else is there, apart from the Archivists?

I'd always thought of the Great Library as infinite. (Possibly infinite-closed, like a sphere where if you travel far enough you return to your starting point, rather than infinite-open, like a plane where you can travel for ever in any direction, but nevertheless infinite). I'd hadn't given much more thought to it than that.

But the implications are that

(1) Archivist-Space is not a real space but rather a virtual reality (whether technological or mystical), acting as an interface to the sum total of all Archivists' knowledge.
(2) As a virtual reality consisting of catalogued information, it looks like a big ass library because Archivists used to be human and libraries are a way of structuring information that people feel comfortable with.
(3) Nothing else is there except for the Archivists -- although an Archivist who's gone to zero Humanity and become purely Transcendent could still be floating around alongside the PCs, and be very alien and powerful, even godlike.

That said, I believe it was Andrew's idea originally that Archivists should have a "home dimension" in which to hang out. Andrew, your thoughts -- particularly (getting back to Metaplot) on how to put this home dimension at risk due to the Nemesis?

[daMoose_Neo]

Re: Library
Or, even allow player perception to guide their view of the Library- an Archivist who acended from say they 50's will have a different idea of a "Library" than a monk from the 14th century and as different a modern librarian (Just visited my old HS on a demo trip- the library is mostly PC's now).
Maybe its a cop-out, but don't define it in any concrete way, just explain all Archivists view it differently, based on frame of reference in time, profession, and personality.

Re: Burn
OOO (me like)

[Doug Ruff]

(2) That Darned Great Library

1) What is Archivist-Space like?
2) What does it look like to Archivists?
3) What else is there, apart from the Archivists?

I'd always thought of the Great Library as infinite. (Possibly infinite-closed, like a sphere where if you travel far enough you return to your starting point, rather than infinite-open, like a plane where you can travel for ever in any direction, but nevertheless infinite). I'd hadn't given much more thought to it than that.

But the implications are that

(1) Archivist-Space is not a real space but rather a virtual reality (whether technological or mystical), acting as an interface to the sum total of all Archivists' knowledge.
(2) As a virtual reality consisting of catalogued information, it looks like a big ass library because Archivists used to be human and libraries are a way of structuring information that people feel comfortable with.
(3) Nothing else is there except for the Archivists -- although an Archivist who's gone to zero Humanity and become purely Transcendent could still be floating around alongside the PCs, and be very alien and powerful, even godlike.

Sydney,

Although these are good answers, all of the above is based upon an assumption that Archivist-Space = The Great Library. In other words, apart from the Host Time Tunnel and the Great Library, nothing else exists.

But this means that the library cannot have been "built" from within Archivist Space, because it is Archivist Space. This makes it harder to accept that it was intentionally designed to conform to Archivist requirements.

[I think I should have also asked the question "how and why did Archivist-Space (or the Great Library) come into being?" So it's my fault if I'm not 100% happy with your answer!]

However, there are some ways of dealing with this:

1) Just say that the Library = Sum of Archivist Knowledge. As Archivists share their memories frequently, and have an unlimited capacity for information, each Archivist carries their own Library around with them. However, some Archivists (and definitely the Nemesis) aren't sharing everything, so your library will always be several books short of a full set.

This means that Archivist-Space only needs to be a place for Archivists to "hang out in". It doesn't even need spatial dimensions - Archivists travel to and from A-Space, they don't travel through it.

(Note: this is my preferred option so far.)

2) The Library is a function of Cyberspace.

Or, even allow player perception to guide their view of the Library- an Archivist who acended from say they 50's will have a different idea of a "Library" than a monk from the 14th century and as different a modern librarian (Just visited my old HS on a demo trip- the library is mostly PC's now).

This reminds me of the definition of cyberspace as a "consensual hallucination". This is a big tangent from most of what's gone before, but imagine this:

To be an Archivist, you need to be able to handle massive amounts of information. To become an Archivist, you need to be exposed to massive amounts of information. Therefore, Archivism is only possible in information-rich environments such as cyberspace.

This makes Archivist-Space vulnerable from within Host-Space (the creation of cyberspace is a Big Event), which may be a good thing. However, it significantly changes the feel of the campaign, as it will inevitably obtain a "hacker" slant: Archivists are effectively mucking about with the source code of Reality.

IMHO, this is a cool concept, but not the right one for this game (but I offer it up to you anyway.)

3) The Blind Watchmaker

Maybe the Great Library is a construct, and Archivist Space has enough dimensions to make the concept of travel to and from the Great Library meaningful. This means that "who built the Great Library" is a valid question within the Setting. I haven't fleshedthis out much further than this.

4) Amber Reimagined

The idea that there is a separate plane of existence that is somehow more "real" or "privileged" than the others reminds me very much of Amber. I don't think this has been mentioned before, and I'm a bit surprised.

(note the following does not accurately represent how the Pattern actually works in Amber - I'm just stealing the visual imagery.)

So theory #4 is that the Library is actually a Great Pattern. This Pattern somehow determines the rules of Host-Time, but there isn't an explicit "text" that tells you what the rules are. In fact, the Pattern could be used to replace my previous "Host Time Tunnel" metaphor.

Archivists aren't dead or disembodied, or even strictly human - they come form another plane which is outside the Pattern. They can travel through the Pattern into Host-Space, but they have to find a suitable "node" - each human being is a node in the Great Pattern, and by entering the Pattern through a Node, you overlay your personality on that person.

Regards,

Doug

[Sydney Freedberg]

I should have also asked the question "how and why did Archivist-Space (or the Great Library) come into being?" So it's my fault if I'm not 100% happy with your answer!

I'm nowhere near 100% happy with it, either. As I said, it was just drawing the logical consequences of something I'd not thought about too hard.

Just say that the Library = Sum of Archivist Knowledge....However, some Archivists (and definitely the Nemesis) aren't sharing everything, so your library will always be several books short of a full set.

Or maybe everything every Archivist knows is in the Library somewhere -- but if you're hiding what you know, those truths are lost in some dark, obscure corner, and other Archivists may have to go questing through this place-which-is-not-a-place, surmounting strange dangers, in order to find what's in the back of your mind. Hey, it's a HeroQuest -- or a psychedelic dungeon-crawl!

2) The Library is a function of Cyberspace....
IMHO, this is a cool concept, but not the right one for this game

Agreed. The Library being in cyerspace should be an alternative option, probably, but not Core or Recommened.

Maybe the Great Library is a construct... This means that "who built the Great Library" is a valid question within the Setting.

Again an option but not a recommended one, I think: It opens the door to all sorts of Powers & Principalities, Demons & Gods operating above the Archivists (which I think DaMoose suggested at one point, actually) -- which is cool, except it lures us away from the human world and thus the game's grounding in emotional reality.

Archivists aren't dead or disembodied, or even strictly human - they come form another plane which is outside the Pattern...

And this I'd object to strongly. Archivists' incorporeality and cosmic knowledge makes them alien enough; if they never were human in the first place, it becomes nigh-impossible to relate to them as protagonists.

The idea that there is a separate plane of existence that is somehow more "real" or "privileged" than the others reminds me very much of Amber.....[The] Library is actually a Great Pattern [that] somehow determines the rules of Host-Time

But this is interesting. Rather than make it a "privileged" frame of reference, though, we can just get back to Schrodinger's poor cat and remember that the Observer affects the Observed, and the Library is the sum total of the Observations, which means it can affect the sum total of what's Observed, namely the human timestream.

The thought gells:

The Great Library is the sum total of everything all Archivists are and know (not much of a distinction for a disembodied mind) -- even the repressed parts a particular Archivist wants to keep secret from its fellows and even denies to itself. Thus the Great Library comes into being with the first Archivist, expands with every new Archivist, and changes constantly, growing as new knowledge is added but also shrinking as Archivists' residual humanity is lost: "Weren't there books of poetry here before? Strange that they're gone....".

Thus the Library completely fills its "dimension" -- it's a closed infinity -- but it does change, which means that time has meaning there. It also means that while nothing is there besides the Archivists, you can still have monsters -- in those darker corners of the Library where your nightmares take tangible form.

And (wrenching back to Metaplot issues), the worse the human universe becomes, the more horrible things the Archivists learn about it, so the darker and grimmer the Library becomes, until it is ultimately intolerable. Conversely, the more inhuman the Archivists allow themselves to be, the drier and more abstract the Library becomes -- which means the Archivists have a poorer understanding of potential Hosts before they try to Possess them, which means they're more likely to hurt or dehumanize those Hosts even if they don't mean to, which means the human universe becomes hollowed out. Thus Observer affects the Observed and the Observed affects the Observer, and the fate of the one is the fate of the other.

[Doug Ruff]

The thought gells:

<snip>

In a word: yes.

In more words: I think this best fits the direction we've been taking the game in. What's more, I think it will work.

Only thing I'll add for now (and I think this will also match what you are thinking already) - Archivsts still retain their sense of self when they are in the Library (which is now Archivist-Spacetime).

This means that they still have to search the Library to learn anything they haven't experienced - and they also have a certain ability to withhold information from their fellows, but this can be overcome.

This alone can be a great driver for Story. Firstly, all the pressure of those other minds, observing your innermost self - not surprising that Archivists might want to escape to Host-Time (in Host-Time, anyone can see what you are doing, but not what you are thinking.

Second, imagine an Archivist with a Secret so terrible, that they cannot allow another Archivist to know it... they may choose to exile themselves to Host-Time in order to keep that Secret.

In summary, I'm very much for this approach. So I'd like people to attack it now - I'd like to see if it holds up.

[Andrew Morris]

That said, I believe it was Andrew's idea originally that Archivists should have a "home dimension" in which to hang out. Andrew, your thoughts -- particularly (getting back to Metaplot) on how to put this home dimension at risk due to the Nemesis?

Okay...wow. Go away for a weekend and so much happens. I'm gonna have to get cellular internet connection for my laptop when I go camping.  :-)

I'm gonna try to get back to everything that's been posted over the weekend, but right now I'm just going to address the Great Library. I'm not sure who coined the term (I think it was JediBlack, but I can't remember for sure), but I've been thinking that the Great Library was the Archivist universe/timestream/etc. Essentially, it's just another name for Archivist-time (and I assumed that implied Archivist-space, because time requires space, whereas space doesn't require time -- any physicists, please check me on this).

I don't like the idea of the Great Library being different to each obsever, not because it isn't cool (it's actually very cool), but simply because it becomes a pain to GM. Meet me in the History section. Uhm....what history section...do you mean the Chanters of Lore?

As to what created the Great Library (and thus what can threaten it) two options jump to mind. First, whatever created our world is what created the Great Library -- the Big Bang, God, whatever creation story you believe, it's the same thing; that's just how reality is. The creation of the Great Library is just something that happened, like the creation of our reality. Second, the Great Library is a causal loop -- it created its own creation. Perhaps the creation has been rewritten, but since Archivists "remember" their own timestream, it wasn't lost entirely, just changed.

I'll post more later.

[Sydney Freedberg]

The thought gells:

<snip>

In a word: yes.... Only thing I'll add for now (and I think this will also match what you are thinking already) - Archivsts still retain their sense of self when they are in the Library (which is now Archivist-Spacetime)

Yes, I'd been assuming that but hadn't articulated it. In essence, the books on the shelves are the contents of the Archivists' memories; but the Archivist's ego (or soul, or "the part of you which makes choices," or whatever) remains a distinct entity, moving through those memories. Metaphysics aside, if characters don't retain some distinct identity, roleplaying becomes nigh impossible....

I don't like the idea of the Great Library being different to each obsever, not because it isn't cool (it's actually very cool), but simply because it becomes a pain to GM.

Agreed. If we go with the idea that the Library comes into being the same time the first Archivist does, then it may be the first Archivist sets the template for the "virtual reality"; or maybe the Library blends all the subconscious ideas of all the Archivists and averages them out into a "consensual hallucination." But it looks the same to every PC, at least, so the GM and players can communicate.

But anyway -- what do other folks think of the Observer-affects-the-Observed feedback cycle as a way of linking the Library and human time and putting them both at risk?

[Kirk Mitchell]

I have a couple of questions. Firstly, where does schrodinger's uncertainty principle come into the game and where can I find it in the mass of threads?

I like the idea of the library being a compilation of all the memories of the archivists, but in being that, I don't think it needs to be on some separate plane or something like that. It could exist as a link between all the archivists, like a network creating some sort of nebulous repository for all the memories, sort of like the internet, or a hive mind, but only applying to memories and experiences. With that, a threat to an archivist is a threat to the great library itself. Maybe archivists can project themselves into the library through some mental representation (they are disembodied beings after all) to converse directly, but they get indirect information from all other archivists as they gain experiences. They learn what the other archivists learn. I dunno if this is any help, but its just my idea. Still working through the threads, but I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up. Bear with me.

Kirk

[Andrew Morris]

Kirk, the Schrodinger's War reference comes from Sydney Freedberg:

1) Schrodinger's War

Paradox is represented mechanically in-game. Let's take Andrew's idea of "if an aspect of history is documented, it's impossible to change" and tone it down to "if X is known to have occurred, it's harder to change." In game terms, this means that if an event of importance X has already been established, either by backstory or in-game events, then when people are back in time before that event happened, there is a modifier of +X to any action they take which makes the event more likely, and a modifier of -X to any action they take which makes the event less likely. I'm inspired by The Riddle of Steel's "Destiny" Spiritual Attribute, but adding the possibility of Destiny working as an impediment to character actions as well as a bonus.

The Hitler example: In our (real) timeline, it's a huge fact of history that Hitler became leader of Germany, slaughtered millions, and brought his nation down in ruins. Let's say Hitler's destiny is a level 10 fact. So if Archivists try to assassinate Hitler back in 1912, or just get him into therapy so he can work out his issues about having only one testicle, they run into a whopping -10 penalty to their every action -- Murphy's Law comes after them with a vengeance and every thing goes wrong at the crucial point. Conversely, if the Archivists are trying to protect Hitler and make sure he becomes the warped, hateful figure that history is counting on, they get at +10 bonus.

Conversely -- and here Schrodinger's Cat comes in -- if something is not known to history, then it is essentially undetermined until the Archivists show up. No bonuses or penalties either way.

As for the consequences of successfully changing history, this require huge GM flexibility on the fly. I wonder if anyone has read Feng Shui, which I hear does this -- though in a rather lighthearted way -- and might offer some tips.

That was from the Time Travel Party thread.

As for finding stuff in the mass of threads, I feel your pain. Hell, I shudder to go back through the threads to find a stray point, and I was there for all of them.  :-)

[Sydney Freedberg]

{deleted -- posted the same link Andrew just did}

[Michael Brazier]

I don't like the idea of the Great Library being different to each obsever, not because it isn't cool (it's actually very cool), but simply because it becomes a pain to GM. Meet me in the History section. Uhm....what history section...do you mean the Chanters of Lore?

If (as seems to be the general idea) Archivists communicate by telepathy in the Library, that wouldn't be a problem.  When a 20th-century Archivist refers to "the History section", that reference would be accompanied by a host of related images, ideas, and experiences which would tell Archivists from pre-Columbian America, say, that he meant what they would call "where the Chanters of Lore are".  When they're at home, Archivists aren't confined to the limits of human languages.

This means, in practice, that every Archivist would be able to translate the "private" language of every other Archivist almost as soon as the words were spoken -- and so the players, to represent this, should have every Archivist speak in terms of the "Great Library", even with characters who wouldn't, in their human lives, know what a library was.  But the players could agree to describe the Library sometimes with quite different metaphors: the Network (for the computer-minded), the City (if you're feeling classical)...

[Tobias]

Lotsa stuff happening again. I also get the feeling that the writing I'm going at home to pull stuff together is being discovered by all you lot as well. First I was mildly chagrined at having written it all out and seeing you all put it here as well - then I suppressed the ego and thought about how cool it was we're on one line.

On Archivist space/what is the GL: yes. Option #1. The 'gelling'. I think I may have written somewhere on the forum that each Archivists experiences are 'uploaded' to the GL immediately once they return from their Host-trip: making ANOTHER reason to treat the host well - otherwise you'll flood the GL with bad memories and feelings as well.

As to Big Events/Small events. We can always decribe what the neccesary pre-requisites to 'unlocking' or 'cracking open' a Big Event are. Whether the group then wishes to play the subtle behind-the-scenes thing first, or go in guns blazing (presuming some NPCs did the gruntwork, for instance), is up to the group.

I think I've also mentioned I like the elastic model - because the chaotic time model is something I feel underequipped to write. (Anyone want that splat, go right ahead, it IS cool after all). And I'm fully with Sydney's various examples on how WWII happens after all, unless you do a lot of groundwork. What I did find, luring in his posts, though (and I'm sure Sydney's not blind to this), is the danger of (perceived) railroading. Player: "I kill Hitler" GM: "[What I want] still happens".

This needs treatment (player-group communication) before it becomes a problem, and we'd do well to write some stuff to facilitate that for the player group.

Also, for those 'struggling' with the GL as concept, anyone aware of the Aristotlean (or that time period's) concepts of memories as 'house'? (i.e. Library/architecture?) Check it out here, for instance. Might be something we like.

So, time for another mechanics thread? With very specific focus? Or do you/we want to wait on my gathering-effort (which, truthfully, might take more than a week at the pace new stuff develops here).

[daMoose_Neo]

Re:Railroading

Might be making an almost cosmetic difference here, but in dealing with history AND roleplaying, I would walk into a scenerio understanding there were many causes and many effects leading up to and away from a given event in history. It's not as much railroading as it is one of the games of "Don't Break the Ice" or "Jenga" - it is possible to move, remove, and alter the structure of the thing without it significantly changing.
I, personally, would see it as natural course of history. As with the WW1 example, the assassination of Franz was the catalyst that lit the fire. There could have been a million and one other catalysts, but WW1 would have still occured and with great probability end the way it did. You'd have to change numerous things to alter the final outcome of that, as well as WW2. Actually, for all intents and purposes, you would almost have to prevent WW1 to prevent WW2, as many of the reasons Germany embraced Hitler and rose to prominance came from WW1.

If the players could be made to understand there are numerous contributors to events, they would see it less as railroading and more of a puzzle. "Okay, I did this, this and this, and it still occurs. Theres something I'm missing here..."

Group Suggestion: Watch 'Back to the Future' 1&2 (3 if you really want) for all sorts of fictional, temporal hijinks. We do see some of that to a degree- "Wait a second, I did X! Why is the fututre still the same?!"

[Andrew Morris]

Well, the whole reason they're acting anyway is because something in that timestream (Nemesis) is going to FUBAR the HTT. So it's significant.

Hmm...a thought just occurred to me. What if the Archivists' ideology was that history needs to be aided and humanity stewarded through the crises it has faced/is facing/will face, while the Nemesis is attempting to structure events either to destroy the Great Library (and thus the Archivists -- perhaps) or at least sever the connections between the timestreams so that Archivists can no longer "meddle" in human affairs. That way, they're both the "good guys," at least from their own perspective. This is pretty much a split along the freedom/happiness axis that's had numerous designations as it's been discussed. I wasn't thrilled with it on first glance, but once you back up to the level of opposing factions, it's pretty neat. We could even reverse those two viewpoints, with the Archivists trying to end the Nemesis' interventions into human history, even if it means they will no longer be able to observe and add to their store of information.

Question: Wouldn't that make, really, Archivist time the Library?

Yes. I'm with you on that point.

But this means that the library cannot have been "built" from within Archivist Space, because it is Archivist Space. This makes it harder to accept that it was intentionally designed to conform to Archivist requirements.

Right. This goes back to earlier posts, where I mentioned the "Librarians" or some such non-human race of beings that are native to the Great Library. Violating the "rules" of the Library would bring on the disfavor of the Librarians, perhaps even resulting in expulsion from the Great Library. So the Archivists/Dark Archivists/Nemesis/whatever are privileged residents, but the Librarians are the silent, mostly uninvolved, powerful caretakers of the Great Library/Archivist-time/Alternate reality.

If (as seems to be the general idea) Archivists communicate by telepathy in the Library, that wouldn't be a problem. When a 20th-century Archivist refers to "the History section", that reference would be accompanied by a host of related images, ideas, and experiences which would tell Archivists from pre-Columbian America, say, that he meant what they would call "where the Chanters of Lore are". When they're at home, Archivists aren't confined to the limits of human languages.

Hmm...that's a very good point, and it makes my earlier objection seem downright silly.

[Doug Ruff]

I think I've also mentioned I like the elastic model - because the chaotic time model is something I feel underequipped to write.

For what it's worth, "stable" (elastic) and "unstable" behaviours are both properties of certain non-linear systems, including "chaotic" ones.

My maths is a bit rusty on this (about 12 years since I last studied it properly), so I will simplify this in a very unscientific way. It's mainly about positive and negative reinforcement, and how the system reacts to a minor change to it's starting conditions.

Stable systems will react to a small change through negative reinforcement - the system will act in a way which suppresses the change.

Unstable systems will react in the opposite way, they will provide positive reinforcement, which can escalate out of control.

Chaotic systems can exhibit both stable and unstable properties - that's how stock market crashes and mass extinctions are possible.

So, if Host-time is mainly "elastic", maybe the Nemesis (or another faction, I like multiple factions) are looking for the unstable bits - and if they find them then  they can wreak havoc upon the established order.