[GroupDesign] - Mix Your Own Metaplot

[contracycle]

Would you agree that it's a good idea, conceptually, to have a 'host time' and an 'archivist time', though? (To give the players some pressure of deadline on archivist time).

Actually I like this a lot but in a slightly different sense.  I think it has to be delicately handled because we don't want to make the human time stream insignificant to the archivists.  OTOH I think the archivists need a "place to hang" as it were, and this place is necessarily "outside of time and space".  And this has reminded me of the Olympian gods as presented in say the hollywood version of the Odyssey, existing in this space that is just an open columned hall against a blue sky.

I do think that the archivists need to be endowed with a sense of urgency, of consequence, else there is little drama, yes.  And that pretty much requires that the archivists be subject to causality, which requires there be SOME sort of subjective time.

Do you have a science background you'd like to share, btw? I'll share mine - I'm a chemical engineer-informatics specialist, with a little study into the quantum world as well as interest in space-time topics.

Oh, well, I just studied computer programming originally, and I read widely.  But information science is amazingly applicable to the material world and I think it has helped make sense of certain other disciplines.  But no I have no formal physics education beyond high-school.

[Tobias]

Would you agree that it's a good idea, conceptually, to have a 'host time' and an 'archivist time', though? (To give the players some pressure of deadline on archivist time).

Actually I like this a lot but in a slightly different sense.  I think it has to be delicately handled because we don't want to make the human time stream insignificant to the archivists.  

Well, the whole reason they're acting anyway is because something in that timestream (Nemesis) is going to FUBAR the HTT. So it's significant. But I get the feeling you're aiming more at an 'actual (human) time spent in the HTT matters to Archivists'?

If so, it might not be the actual progress of time that matters to them while they do it - it could as well be the shaping they undergo while they are in the Host. No matter that effectively 0 seconds pass, big matter that you incurred a couple of points of permanent Fade/Burn.

OTOH I think the archivists need a "place to hang" as it were, and this place is necessarily "outside of time and space".  And this has reminded me of the Olympian gods as presented in say the hollywood version of the Odyssey, existing in this space that is just an open columned hall against a blue sky.

I do think that the archivists need to be endowed with a sense of urgency, of consequence, else there is little drama, yes.  And that pretty much requires that the archivists be subject to causality, which requires there be SOME sort of subjective time.

Right. Thanks. I would agree the place they "hang" (and experience archivist-time) would be "outside of Human space and time".

[Andrew Morris]

Welcome to the Forge, Michael. Glad you decided to jump right in to the project.

Tobias, nitpicker's point here: neither of the two timestreams is "outside" the other, better to say they are parallel, but with an finite and variable intersection.

As to the voting:

Two Timestreams -- Obviously, I'm way for it. Nuff said.

Second Axis -- Yes, we should have one. No, I don't think it should be Freedom vs. Happiness. I'm thinking something more along the lines of Pragmatic vs. Moral, or something. I think the only reason we don't have more options is that nobody asked for them. I'd definitely like to see some more discussion on this before it is nailed down.

Archivist Factions -- Bah! Who needs 'em? I say save stuff like this for the expansion modules. Archivist/Nemesis or Archivist/Nemesis/Rogue is good enough for now.

[Tobias]

Fine to pick nits, Andrew, but I'm having difficulty envisioning the time streams as parralel and the archivists experiencing a sense of urgency in the one (A-time) but not in the other (H-time).

Second Axis needs a further look - agreed, there's only axis option out there now, and like mentioned earlier, I think the freedom vs. happiness needs looking into at least before it becomes useful. I'd like to see alternatives as well (although I think there's value in the Free/Happy one has good potential). Pragmatic vd. Moral doesn't to me seem to be a scale you could slide on very well and more a fixed setting for an individual, but that could just be me. Every complication is of course a challenge between pragmatic and moral (when they are in conflict).

Factions: while I don't want proliferation here, I can imagine it would only be logical that something similar to factions would arise from the different agenda's at ends with each other (Nemesis and Archivists being one, but there's probably some more related agenda's lurking in the time stream interaction. We still don't know if the Archivists are merely conservative/reacting to Nemesis, or push their own agenda - nor what that is).

Archivist agenda is probably based on the event that started 'A-time'. If it's Nemesis, they're reactionary. If it's some Archivists from whatever time being the first to exist, (s)he probably sets the agenda. Or maybe it's a cosmic non-A related event.

It's a question that may need asking: what started the A-time? Or did it start at the same 'time' or 'point' as the Big Bang, and just evolved at a different rate/in a different dimension?

Oh, and I'll recommend Laszlo's Science and the Akashic Field again - just cause it's the last book I read, relevant, and good, IMHO.

[Sydney Freedberg]

(1) Archivists' human pasts as their anchor in human history

Make the Archivists' past experiences in history be their anchor to humanity... Each time the Archivist tries to change an event and fails....there's more of their past being cancelled. .... by discovering where in history an Archivist first came from, then altering that part of history, an Archivist enemy can reduce his victim to the dispassionate indifference of the purely transcendent.... when Archivists have had all their history annulled, and therefore cease to care for history as it is, they are attracted to the Nemesis and become its agents ...

Or they simply drift off into total Transcendence and cease for all practical purposes to exist -- and (following Tony's & Tobias's thoughts) the Great Library, as the sum of Archivists' knowledge, ceases to exist as well.

I find this idea of Michael's very intriguing -- it helps give Transcendence/Burn vs. Humanity/Fade both an individual and a cosmic dimension.

And of course I'm really pleased to see more and more people jumping in with good ideas. Lurkers of the world, unite -- you have nothing to lose but, well, um, I dunno, nothing really.


(2) Freedom vs. "Happiness"

Yeah, we really need to thrash this one out some more. "Happiness" is too nebulous a concept, but so are "morality vs. pragmatism." And I still think free will is the crucial issue at one pole of this axis, because there is no way to avoid issues of free will and choice when you're (a) possessing people (b) messing with history.

But as to how how to define the opposite end -- as survival? utility? Do The Right Thing? -- I'm struggling.


(3) Changing history

Over in Advanced Archivism, there's an interesting (but out-of-place) discussion of chaos theory vs. elastic timestreams. In other words, does any intervention in the past cause a chaotic cascade of unpredictable changes -- in which case our game is frickin' unplayable -- or does history have some kind of inertia or even negative feedback balancing system whereby it tends to keep itself to the same path, with changes to the past rippling through as relatively subtle changes -- in which case our game is actually playable?

The best model of elasticity (which obviously I prefer) is actually not in anything traditionally defined as science fiction, but in the movie It's a Wonderful Life, where (spoiler alert, like you've not all seen the movie a million times) an angel shows the Jimmy Stewart character what his hometown would have been like had he never been born. And the place is physically pretty much the same, with the same neighborhoods and the same people, but the atmosphere of everything is darker: Everything is more run-down, people's lives are blighted, despair and greed have triumphed over hope and generosity. And because all the characters are the same, these macro-scale changes are not abstractations, but embodied in specific people you care about and whose miserable lives you want to change for the better (as with the "help Chen" example in Time Travel Party). I think this is the kind of history-changing we want to do.

Now, a lot of people have been talking about assassinations -- killing Hitler and preventing WWII, saving Kennedy (and ending Vietnam early, I guess), saving Archduke Franz Ferdinand and preventing World War I. That's dramatic and exciting, but as someone trained in history who now works in journalism, I'd argue you just can't prevent Big Events that way: They're overdetermined, with multiple causes; and by the time you get to the eve of a war or equally large event, it's got too much momentum to be stopped at the last minute.

To take the Franz Ferdinand example, Europe was primed to explode by that point. Nationalism was hyping up every country into militarism, even England (read the poetry of Rupert Brooke about how wonderful it will be to abandon the corruption of peace and dive in to the "clean water" of a purifying war), and especially Germany. And because the Austro-Hungarian Empire was NOT a nation-state but a system where Germans and Hungarians lorded it over Slavs, it was being ripped apart by Slavic nationalism -- which was being sponsored by Serbia: When a Serbian-affiliated activist killed Franz Ferdinand, it gave the Austrians the excuse they needed to invade Serbia, but they'd have found one sooner or later. And the Germans, besides being drunk on Wagneresque warmongering, were willing to help the Austrians even though it meant fighting Serbia's ally, Russia, because the Germans were afraid of Russia getting stronger and figured they should smack them down sooner or later: Again, if Ferdinand hadn't been killed, the Germans would have found their excuse for war regardless.

But while it's very hard to prevent Big Events, it is entirely possible to change how they come out -- which in turn changes the next Big Event down the road. If you have World War I, can you prevent World War II? Maybe -- but probably only by making WWI worse, so German gets hammered flat and becomes tired of militarism in 1919 instead of 1945, which means you want the Germans to stay in the fight longer so they suffer more, which means you may need to go back to 1909 and change the careers of some German officers so they're intellectually ready to invent the tank before the British do, instead of copying the idea half-assedly as happened in actual history.

And remember, Archivists are not typical adventure heroes: What makes them special is their knowledge. So adventures should not be about killing people and blowing stuff up, but about figuring things out so you can make the right, subtle tweak at the right time. Maybe you go back and befriend Stalin as a kid so he doesn't grow up to be such a murderous bastard; maybe you save a Confucian classic from the book-burners of the First Qin Emperor so 500 years later Chinese culture is a little bit more humane. Doing subtle stuff in the shadows of history (the parts not locked down by observation) is arguably more fun than "let's kill Hitler's grandpa!" And it's also easier to GM, by far, because what you're doing is NOT rewriting every major event in history every time the PCs succeed: Instead you're doing the Wonderful Life effect as subtle changes in tone for good or ill ripple through the same basic setting.

[Andrew Morris]

I'm having difficulty envisioning the time streams as parralel and the archivists experiencing a sense of urgency in the one (A-time) but not in the other (H-time).

Why? We haven't defined the time scale of the two timestreams yet. We could decide that a minute in host-time equals a minute in Archivist-time. Alternately, we could vary the scale -- every minute in Archivist-time equals a decade in host-time, so you better wrap up that complication in the Great Library in the next few seconds, or you'll miss the window for your next mission. Or something like that. Did that address your concern, or did I jump off in a totally different direction?

[Andrew Morris]

Or they simply drift off into total Transcendence and cease for all practical purposes to exist -- and (following Tony's & Tobias's thoughts) the Great Library, as the sum of Archivists' knowledge, ceases to exist as well.

Or they are stuck in the Great Library when they have no connection to human existence (meaning the "cracks" into the host-time tunnel vary by the individual Archivist). Then you could get into situations where the Archivists have to decide to change history in a way that benefits the enemy, but allows their comrade to rejoin them in host-time. I'm not sure I like the entry points (cracks, windows, whatever) into host-time varying by the individual, but it's an idea.

[Doug Ruff]

Sydney,

As your last post is very long (and is only 3 posts back), I won't quote it here. I just want to question something about it.

I agree absolutely that the game should be about making subtle changes, and that Archivists just can't "wade in" and attempt to make major changes to events which are "overdetermined, with multiple causes" (great expression, BTW.)

But what Archivists make enough minor and subtle changes, that they are able to undermine a significant number of the underlying multiple causes? Does this mean that the Big Event is no longer overdetermined, and can be "captured"? And would you support this style of play?

For example, we are going to make Chen happy, because in 30 years time this will help us to change which Dynasty rules China?

Because I think that this is the type of conflict that will be central to an Archivist/Darkchivist (and any other faction) campaign.

Also that the results of these conflicts will ultimately have an effect on events in A-Time. I especially like the idea that Archivists can be somehow hurt by changes to the H-Time continuum, and that this should be related to how much of an Archivist's "history" in Host-Time is still valid.

Here's another spin on this: every Archivist "genesis moment" (when they became an Archivist for the first time) is it's own Big Event. Each character must identify the a set of circumstances that caused them to achieve Archivist status. If these events are altered significantly, then the Archivist Fades somehow within Archivist-Time.

For example: my Archivist character was a noted scientist in his Host-life, his dedication to knowledge was one of the factors that caused him to become an Archivist.

I representing this by choosing "Studied at MIT" as one of his Genesis Events. If as a result of changes made to Host-Time, MIT ceases to exist, my character takes damage!

[Doug Ruff]

On the Great Library:

If we accept the HTT theory - there is no Library as such.

Why? IMHO, the original concept of the Great Library was as a repository of human history.

However, the HTT, as viewed from within Archivist-Time, is that repository - there is no separate Great Library.

However, Tony's observation that Archivists are the Library still has meaning within this theory. Because Archivists remember what History was like, before History changed. And they can attempt to change it back.

Arguments between Archivists and other factions can be defined under the following categories:

- Arguments over which History is the True History (and who remembers it best)
- Arguments over whether True History should be changed for something better. I think this is where the "freedom vs happiness" bit comes in - True History is what would have happened if it wasn't for Archivist interference. The exercise of Archivist free will undermines Host free will, and subverts True History. Or at least, that's one side of the moral debate.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Okay, here comes "Yes, Yes, No" to Doug's latest.

(1) Big Events can change -- Yes:

But what [if] Archivists make enough minor and subtle changes, that they are able to undermine a significant number of the underlying multiple causes? Does this mean that the Big Event is no longer overdetermined, and can be "captured"? And would you support this style of play?

Absolutely.

Now, as you imply, "capturing" a major event -- i.e. changing the course of history on the scale of "World War II never happened" or "Thriving colonies are established on the moon by 2001" -- should require a long "campaign" of subtle preparatory work, often far removed in history from the moment of the event itself. Such a "campaign" could be an entire campaign in the roleplaying sense, too; at the very least changing a Big Event in history should be a Big Event in the game as well.

Whereas the normal result of a single "mission" (read "adventure" or "game session") should be the "Bedford Falls Effect" (to use the name of the town in It's a Wonderful Life: The world's changed significantly for the better or for the worse, but it's still clearly the same world. It's only by adding enough well-placed subtle shifts that players should be able to earn the big changes.

Which cries out for a mechanic, of course.


(2) Archivists vulnerable to attacks on their human past -- Yes

I especially like the idea that Archivists can be somehow hurt by changes to the H-Time continuum, and that this should be related to how much of an Archivist's "history" in Host-Time is still valid. ere's another spin on this: every Archivist "genesis moment" (when they became an Archivist for the first time) is it's own Big Event....if these events are altered significantly, then the Archivist Fades somehow within Archivist-Time.

Also agreed -- though the damage may be more loss of human traits aka passions, and subsequent disconnection from the mortal world and inability to act effectively in it, than fade-out as defined so far.

This gives players an urgent stake in what goes on the timesteam -- a radical change in the past is the one thing that can "kill" their incorporeal characters! It also allows for another Hard Choice: Do you change the timestream in such a way that makes history much better but wipes out the fact of your own existence?


(3) The Great Library doesn't exist -- No

If we accept the HTT [Human Time Tunnel] theory - there is no Library as such. Why? IMHO, the original concept of the Great Library was as a repository of human history.  However, the HTT, as viewed from within Archivist-Time, is that repository - there is no separate Great Library.

Here I disagree. The Great Library is the repository of everything the Archivists know about human history. Human history itself is a separate thing: One is the Observer, the other the Observed -- and yes, as quantum theory and Schrodinger's War/Cat/whatever shows, each inevitably affects the other, but while they're part of the the same overall system, they're not the same thing.

And your very good ideas about debates among Archivists about what the True History is, and how it's changed, and whether it should be changed, work better if there is a Great Library to sum up all the Archivists' knowledge of all the variant histories and embody all the complexities and contradictions and shifts. (Yes, I know the Great Library isn't a physical place, so it can't technically "embody" anything, but it serves as a huge metaphysical "visual aid" to help players visualize what is otherwise a vast amorphous abstraction).

[Doug Ruff]

If we accept the HTT [Human Time Tunnel] theory - there is no Library as such. Why? IMHO, the original concept of the Great Library was as a repository of human history.  However, the HTT, as viewed from within Archivist-Time, is that repository - there is no separate Great Library.

Here I disagree. The Great Library is the repository of everything the Archivists know about human history.

Except, as you say later, the Great Library is not a physical place - to which I would add, it isn't a place in Archivist-Time either.

This is why I like Tony's "Archivists=Library" idea.

I don't think that there is a great deal of difference between what we are both saying here, by the way. It's just that I don't (yet) see a way for there to be a separate "repository of everything the Archivists know" that Archivists can consult.

I can see Archivists consulting each other telepathically, merging memories somehow within A-Time, to construct their "visual aid".

But this would mean that the Great Library is actually a community, rather than an object that exists independently of the Archivists. Each Archivist is a book within it.

I think that's the only point of difference, and it may be that I haven't understood your previous post, but it looks to me like you think that there could be a separate Library still. If so, I would like to know how it works - because it could be a very cool concept.

[daMoose_Neo]

Question: Wouldn't that make, really, Archivist time the Library? Slip out of the HTT into AT, the A's would 'jack in' to this telepathic network and BOOM.

Other thing (Tangent! WOO!): I have a feeling many groups would want to jump right into the big events (Prevent this Assasination or Kill this person instead, have the Japanese formally declare war aside from PH, prevent the Manhatten Project)-
What might almost be a good idea (once we're though with the system) is to start to put together "Event Books" (okay, splats) for specific, major events players are likely to tackle (or get it out there and find out what they want to tackle). Not everyone who plays is a major history buff and may just like the idea of time traveling and killing Hitler. The books would give a more or less detailed history of the larger and smaller causes and effects of the events, why it would occur anyway, what other outlets the spark might take, etc.

IE
GM: "Okay, we're going to stop WW2 starting today's campaign"-
Players: "Okay, I kill Hitler during WW1."
GM: "WW2 still happened."
Players: "What?!"
GM: "The Germans, bitter at their defeat in WW1, secretly hoarded cash and supplies after World War 1, snubbing the League of Nations and created a stockpile of weapons, munitions, and supplies. Once they strengthed their military once more, they sought out former German territories, taking one by force while diplomatically absorbing the others until England realized Germany had become too powerful..."

or

Players: "The Japanese peacefully reach agreements to purchase large amounts of land from several local governments, anexing them into the Japanese Empire. Thus, Pearl Harbor is avoided because the Japanese were able to peaceably attain the territory and had no reason to provoke us. Because of that, we never needed the Atom Bombs to end the conflict."
GM: "Mounting losses in the German front caused the US government to worry about possibly losing the war. Reports flowed in about the Reich's attempts at atomic weapons, fueling American fears and a need to develop our own. Finally, perfecting our own weapon after several tests in the western deserts, we dropped a low-grade test weapon over Berlin."

A couple of those I would say are rather odd angles or results, not quite what one would expect, both player end and GM end. It wasn't that long ago I went over quite a bit of this in HS and College, and a friend is WW2 History Buff. The more we can provide players about events they may want to change, the better we can facilitate the "subtle" changes.

Alternatively, we could try to encourage modern settings, the Archivists doing things to alter/prevent/bring about changes in OUR futures.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Question: Wouldn't that make, really, Archivist time the Library? Slip out of the HTT into AT, the A's would 'jack in' to this telepathic network and BOOM.

Good way of putting it (better than my "giant visual aid" metaphor). The Great Library is essentially a virtual reality (perhaps a mystical/magical one, perhaps a technological construct, it doesn't matter) which serves as an interface between individual Archivists and the accumulated knowledge of all Archivists.

I have a feeling many groups would want to jump right into the big events....Not everyone who plays is a major history buff and may just like the idea of time traveling and killing Hitler...

You're probably right; and I'd suggest there are two ways of handling that. One is to allow a "Two-Fisted History-Altering Action!" variant where players can indeed stop World War II by killing Hitler just before he comes to power; this really doesn't require much in the way of mechanics, although it would require lots of help for the GM figuring out the radical changes in history.

The other approach is to have the kinds of "well, WWII happens anyway, only differently" results you outlined in your post, which -- if the frustration level doesn't mount too fast -- can lead players to realize, in and out of character, that they need to do the subtle stuff first before they're able to change the big events.

[Michael Brazier]

(2) Archivists vulnerable to attacks on their human past -- Yes

I especially like the idea that Archivists can be somehow hurt by changes to the H-Time continuum, and that this should be related to how much of an Archivist's "history" in Host-Time is still valid. ere's another spin on this: every Archivist "genesis moment" (when they became an Archivist for the first time) is it's own Big Event....if these events are altered significantly, then the Archivist Fades somehow within Archivist-Time.

Also agreed -- though the damage may be more loss of human traits aka passions, and subsequent disconnection from the mortal world and inability to act effectively in it, than fade-out as defined so far.

If I understood correctly, Fade is defined as a loss of Archivist traits; the Archivist starts merging with his Host, and losing his tie with Archivist-time.  (And I have the impression that Burn, damage to the Host, is caused by the Archivist pulling the Host partly into Archivist-time, straining the Host's mind-body link, to preserve the Archivist's link with the Transcendent.)  Annulling an Archivist's past definitely should not cause Fading, if that's right, since it's a loss of human traits; you need a name for a collapse into Transcendence ...

This gives players an urgent stake in what goes on the timesteam -- a radical change in the past is the one thing that can "kill" their incorporeal characters! It also allows for another Hard Choice: Do you change the timestream in such a way that makes history much better but wipes out the fact of your own existence?

Yes, isn't that lovely?  And there's the macro version of the dilemma: what if the change that greatly improves history will affect the pasts of nearly all the Archivists, so that the Library itself might disconnect from history?  That problem should arise, logically, with all changes to Big Events.

Here I disagree. The Great Library is the repository of everything the Archivists know about human history. Human history itself is a separate thing: One is the Observer, the other the Observed -- and yes, as quantum theory and Schrodinger's War/Cat/whatever shows, each inevitably affects the other, but while they're part of the the same overall system, they're not the same thing.

A question: is "the Great Library" meant to be 1) the basic reality outside of history, on which the Archivists' existence as Archivists depends; or 2) the main institution of the Archivists' society, their communal memory; or both?  If it's 2), as you say here, has anything been said about 1)?

[Doug Ruff]

Annulling an Archivist's past definitely should not cause Fading, if that's right, since it's a loss of human traits; you need a name for a collapse into Transcendence ...

Good point, Fade is the wrong choice for this - although I'm not sure that it's a "collapse into Transcendence" as much as "a collapse out of existence".

Perhaps the damage caused to an Archivist by altering their history is a better place for us to hang the "Archivist Burn" mechanic - or maybe we need something else.

A question: is "the Great Library" meant to be 1) the basic reality outside of history, on which the Archivists' existence as Archivists depends; or 2) the main institution of the Archivists' society, their communal memory; or both?  If it's 2), as you say here, has anything been said about 1)?

Another good point. Although we have discussed Archivist-Time in some detail, so far there has been little discussion about what constitutes Archivist-Space. This is why I'm having problems with the Great Library: I don't know whether there is a separate location within Archivist-Space that can contain it.

So, some questions I'd like help in answering:

1) What is Archivist-Space like?
2) What does it look like to Archivists?
3) What else is there, apart from the Archivists?