Large scale print runs... What are the advantages?

[J. Campbell]

Specifically, what are the advantages to someone seeking to break into the small-scale world of Indie-produced RPG books? To me, the advantages of POD are immediate: No stock to have to worry about, no worries about start up costs, etc. Is there any advantage to going through all the work and then NOT doing POD?

[daMoose_Neo]

Speaking as someone who's made that mistake: Nothing.
In fact, going this route royally bit me in the butt. Had I NOT gone through the large scale print, I wouldn't

A) Have spent most of my money on the printing
B) Have a closet full (Yes, I AM stereotypical in this)
C) Have troubles financing new sets of my card game

Because I went with this large scale run, I'm actually treading water now. I have additional stock I can't move thats typing up my money, I'm short on funds for additional artwork as well as new sets...
Really, it costs too much money at once, ties up too much money, and requires too much space to store it. Too much of a pain in the butt.

Some might suggest that the sheer number of a run reduces the cost per unit, but many POD services are quickly catching up. Case in point: I can print my card game on a practical POD basis for the same price per deck that I printed the initial run. Its a LOT easier to do 250 decks (which is actually short run for me) than 2000, in all terms.

[TonyLB]

What's a Large Print Run, in this context?  Small Run presses will whip you off pretty small lots of books (like 100) for reasonably competitive prices.  You're not going to cut the Lulu cost in half, but you'll cut it somewhat, and you'll have books on hand whenever you go to a convention.

[J. Campbell]

Tony: Well, I'm thinking large print run in RPG terms, so at most I'm thinking of a 500 print run for a first-time product. I know I'm going to make mistakes, I know it'll be crap compared to what I'll be able to come up with once I get my head straight and know more about the business. The large print run will mainly be for conventions, I think.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I'm probably a bit of a dinosaur regarding this issue. I like my print runs. Sorcerer books routinely start out at 1500 or 1000 books, and reprints are usually 750 or 1000. I've just moved into my second printing for The Sorcerer's Soul, right on schedule.

For the new POD format, that's how I'm printing Elfs, but I still like the idea of actual books in hand, so I print 100 at a time (onto second printing already, no big surprise).

Now, I'll be the first to tell you that these books, when not yet sold, are a huge pain in the ass tax liability at the first of the year. That's why I held off on reprinting The Sorcerer's Soul until after January 1. Tax laws currently favor the book publishers who unload their product into distribution instantly and mulch the rest.

So there's no good reason to favor the approach that I favor. My only excuse is precedent (Sorcerer books are printed old-school style) and habit (I like having a few solid handfuls of Elfs to hand in the warehouse). If I were starting from scratch today, I'd be certain to be using the better POD services, as most people are doing.

Best,
Ron

[J. Campbell]

Okay, so the universally favoured approach will be POD, then? There's no good reason to do a big all-in-one print order unless I'm going to be offloading them right away, huh?

I mean, if Lulu's price drops are any indication about the kind of price drops I'll get on a normal print run, I'll only be saving myself a grand at most on the production... but that's weighed against the cost of having to purchase my own online storefront (easily $400 or more), my own webspace (call it $200 a year), and then I have to worry about the fact that my game might very well flop.

Saving myself a measly $400 for all that risk and added headache doesn't strike me as a good idea at all.

[jdagna]

I still do most of my books in 500-copy print runs for a couple of reasons... first, it's cheaper per book for large books.  Most POD printers have a steep per-page price ($.02 or more each), while most traditional printers have a steep per-run price.  As an example, my 300 page core book would cost $6 from a POD printer just based on the page count and $7-10 total, but my traditional printer does the entire book for basically $1500, plus $3 per book.  At 500 books, that's a pretty good price ($6 each) and at 1000, it's even better ($4.50 or so).

However, don't make the mistake of drooling over a low per-unit price.  Figure you can sell 100 copies a year* and then see whether the larger run still makes sense.  Most of the time, it won't.  And if you're selling quantities that small, you're losing money anyway, so the question is whether to lose a lot or a little.

* I've been selling more than this recently, but it was pretty much what I saw, per title, for the first three years.

Anyway, I'm going to print my next book POD through Lightning Source because with a lower page count, I'll get better prices and also because my traditional printer royally screwed up the last run (two months of delays now).  I still plan to stock it in orders of 100 or so at a time regardless of who I go through.  

I do not intend to ever use one-at-a-time POD printers like Lulu or RPGMall, though - their prices are just too high and you don't get some of the perks like coated covers that I consider necessary (having done without on my very first run way back when).

[timfire]

There's no good reason to do a big all-in-one print order unless I'm going to be offloading them right away, huh?

Well, a traditional print run will be a hellava lot cheaper. For a 150 page book at lulu it's gonna cost you - what, $5 maybe? For a traditional print run of 1000 books, you could probably get that down to $2.50 or maybe even $2. That's a *big* difference.

but that's weighed against the cost of having to purchase my own online storefront (easily $400 or more), my own webspace (call it $200 a year), and then I have to worry about the fact that my game might very well flop.

I think you're over-inflating those costs. First, why should an online sorefront cost $400? Paypal doesn't charge that much, do they? (I don't know much about Paypal, I may be wrong). You can easily get webhsting for $150 a year.

Like I said before, the advantage of a traditional print run is price. It's alot cheaper, so that means you'll make more money for the same cover price. However, like people have said, you have to front more money. You also have to worry about your game flopping and you getting stuck with unsold merchandise. It also takes more time, because you'll likely have to deal with the money stuff youself, as well as fullfillment (warehousing and shipping).

A POD service like lulu (note, not all POD services offer an online storefront like lulu) is alot more expensive, but has little upfront costs, and takes away alot of the headache of managing the day-to-day tasks.

[edit] Cross-posted with Justin. [/edit]

[J. Campbell]

Ah, so I should probably stick with POD untill I make it to the point where doing it in a print run large enough that I think I might actually sell would be workable and realistic, when I have enough recognition and a big enough fanbase to say to myself: "I'm confident I can sell X number of units based on the fact that Y number of people will know about my product because they liked my previous work."

So in other words, when the heavens break open and the sun shines down on me. :P

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

That's right! Each step in your publishing plan should (a) viably sell books and (b) be affordable right now. There's no reason to accumulate debt as part of the plan, hoping for a big payoff down the road.

Maybe something like this:

1. Basic website, POD product, perhaps PDF duplicate or backup, Paypal payment, some means for feedback. You might handle your own fulfilment at this point (some people like it, some hate it).

Look into the Forge Bookshelf, Indie Press Revolution, and lulu.com for some options regarding downloads and fulfilment, if you don't want to handle all the details yourself.

Final point, as a useful comparison: one reason why I've stuck with traditional print for Sorcerer and its supplements is that when I first produced these books,

a) there was no POD printing available with any reliable quality
b) one could still rely on getting about 500 books into store distribution on very little promotion (as long as you did the right kind)
c) the books' custom format, especially the core book, required technology that still isn't easily available at most POD companies

And later, when POD did become available, I learned that switching was more costly than sticking to reprinting, for my books and my current arrangements with Patterson Printing.

But since you and everyone else starting up now are effectively in a Brave New World, then I suggest talking with Tim (timfire), Clinton, Luke Crane, Ralph Mazza (Valamir), and Paul Czege - these guys really know the range of POD options and fulfilment.

Best,
Ron

[Roger]

I'm not sure if this is off-topic for this thread or not, but in general, it's certainly not unusual for people who write books to sell them to a publishing house, sometimes through an agent, sometimes not, and let someone else worry about that whole side of things.

I bring it up only because it seems painfully obvious in its absence.


Cheers,
Roger

[Brendan]

Roger, I think it is a bit off-topic:

Specifically, what are the advantages to someone seeking to break into the small-scale world of Indie-produced RPG books?

A book sold to a publisher is not indie-produced--much less creator-owned, as is the focus area of the Forge.  (If you want to discuss that point further, we should start another thread.)

[Keith Senkowski]

but that's weighed against the cost of having to purchase my own online storefront (easily $400 or more), my own webspace (call it $200 a year), and then I have to worry about the fact that my game might very well flop.

I think you're over-inflating those costs. First, why should an online sorefront cost $400? Paypal doesn't charge that much, do they? (I don't know much about Paypal, I may be wrong). You can easily get webhsting for $150 a year.

Tim you are right, those are crazy over inflated prices.  If you are using Pay Pal they take a small precentage of your sale, so all you have is the cost of your website.

My one recommendation, regardless of the route you take, is to keep good books and sit down with an accountant.  The advice they will give is invaluable.

Keith

[daMoose_Neo]

As far as webspace, I've comfortably hosted Neo for $4.99 a month on our current host and about $18 for a 2 year claim on the domain neoproductions.net, so webspace is a LOT cheaper (almost a quarter of that estimate!)

(Interested, check out http://www.fuitadnet.com. And no, I don't get a comission, the service is just unbelievable for the price!)

[Blankshield]

Okay, so the universally favoured approach will be POD, then? There's no good reason to do a big all-in-one print order unless I'm going to be offloading them right away, huh?

I mean, if Lulu's price drops are any indication about the kind of price drops I'll get on a normal print run, I'll only be saving myself a grand at most on the production... but that's weighed against the cost of having to purchase my own online storefront (easily $400 or more), my own webspace (call it $200 a year), and then I have to worry about the fact that my game might very well flop.

Saving myself a measly $400 for all that risk and added headache doesn't strike me as a good idea at all.

It's very relevent to point out that Ken's mention regarding taxes applies to those weird folk across the border in the US of A.  Up here in Canada, there is no tax hit for stock-on-hand.  There is, in fact, no tax hit (if you are going the Sole Proprietorship route, as I am - I highly recommend it.)

For Death's Door I am planning a modest print run - 100 or so, as it's my first product, and I want to keep things small for now.  If it establishes well and has a steady rate of sales, I would probably kick the second print run up to 500.

James