Loser roleplaying

[Vaxalon]

Dimestore Katanas
Kill Puppies for Satan

I'm sure there's others...

Am I the only one that feels a little... squicked by this?  

I mean, if playing heroes invokes our aspirations for nobility, and playing monsters (a la Vampire, Sorceror, etc) mirrors our inner battles to remain clean in a dirty, dirty world, what does it say about us to play sociopathic little losers in a tailspin of violence and betrayal?

[TonyLB]

My Life With Master.

It says that we are willing to confront the fact that weakness is part of the human condition, and to broaden our ability to offer sympathy, pity and mercy.

I suspect (and perhaps people can back me up or contradict me) that those who have played these games are less offended by them than those who just look at the games from the outside.

[jrs]

You may want to read this post from the RPG Theory forum: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9340">Why people find it fun to be sick...

I'm guessing that the theory or actual play forum would be better for this topic since there isn't a specific game under development being discussed.

Julie

[Jason Petrasko]

"confront the fact that weakness is part of the human condition", I like that.

I think the desire to play games like these speaks to those looking at the RPG as a tool to generate an interesting experience. I mean once you have played the hero to your content, and played monsters galore, what is left? What other experiences can an RPG convey? These 'loser' rpgs offer another view on roleplaying, something players tired of the same molds offered over and over are sure to jump at. The offense they may convey at first glance simply acts to make them stand out and identify themselves as something different, attracting this type of player even more.

I don't think it says much on a deeper level, but then again I'm not that deep of a player.

[lumpley]

I don't know about you all, but I'm a loser.

I could play Vampire all the time, I'd be like, hah! now they're scared of ME! That's fun. That'd take my mind off it.

Is taking my mind off it what's best?

-Vincent

[Roger]

If playing heroes invokes our aspirations for nobility, and playing monsters (a la Vampire, Sorceror, etc) mirrors our inner battles to remain clean in a dirty, dirty world, what does it say about us to play sociopathic little losers in a tailspin of violence and betrayal?

(emphasis mine)

That's a pretty big if.

Not to mention that virtually every Vampire game I've ever been in has leaned much more towards the "nobility" side of things than the "sociopathic little losers" side of things.

Regardless, there are times when people are not playing heroes.  I think it can be very liberating to not need to be heroic all the time.



Cheers,
Roger

[pete_darby]

Heck, I just like to feel superior to my PC's once in a while.

My superhero and vampire PC's think I'm a geek.

Substantial reply coming up if /when we get this topic moved to theory...

[Judd]

The game concept I have for Dime-Store Katanas is to take a hard look at violence, not necessarily on the physical ramifications but on how it spirals out of control and how it works as a lever for solving problems in one's life.

I don't want the game to be focused on the kewl and while I do want some measure of snicker, it will be the uncomfortable laughter that comes from something true.

I think My Life with Master definitely inspired me for this kind of undertaking.  That game really made me think about self-hatred, horrible things people do and who they hate for having to do them.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

My kill puppies review touches on this issue in some detail.

Best,
Ron

[Vaxalon]

My Life With Master.

It says that we are willing to confront the fact that weakness is part of the human condition, and to broaden our ability to offer sympathy, pity and mercy.

I suspect (and perhaps people can back me up or contradict me) that those who have played these games are less offended by them than those who just look at the games from the outside.

I don't count My Life with Master in the "Loser Roleplaying" group.  Why?  Because, ultimately, the goal of every PC in MLWM is to take that leap up out of loserdom.  That's how you "win".

I've never played KPFS, is there any mechanic in it for gaining enough of whatever resource and redeeming oneself?  I didn't see one in all the descriptions of it.

[Vaxalon]

You, the real person, have to cope with your own warped imagination using humor - and the coping is real. Playing kill puppies for satan is an exercise in self-discovery, and surprisingly, it's usually a positive one that I never would have anticipated.

In spite of being fairly extensively covered in the review, this is something I don't get.

You seem to be saying, that by playing a PC who treats the people below them on the pecking order in terrible ways, we learn to have compassion for the people on the ladder below us?

1. PC treats NPC with cruelty.
2. Player is to PC as PC is to NPC.
3. RL Loser takes the place of PC.
4. Player treats RL Loser with compassion.

Is that the logic chain?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Fred,

Nope, in KPFS, the only reward system is based on Evil, and the only thing Evil is good for is doing atrocious things. The game only offers a hamster wheel. The characters are LOOOO-zers.

I do suggest looking at the "Ick poo" section of my review carefully, especially the quotes from various people. The *game* offers no redemption, but *play* offers a player-only reward in terms of forgiving one's character which turns out to happen very often in practice.

This concept is central to my general response to your (excellent) thread topic. "Our characters are losers, but I don't have to be mean to them."

Interestingly, I have yet to encounter or hear of a group who's played KPFS intensively more than once. (Vincent doesn't count)

Best,
Ron

[TonyLB]

I don't count My Life with Master in the "Loser Roleplaying" group.  Why?  Because, ultimately, the goal of every PC in MLWM is to take that leap up out of loserdom.  That's how you "win".

That hasn't been my experience with it, but my experience is limited.  At the end of Destroyer of Dreams, for instance, my character was still a loser.  Indeed, he was far more of a loser than he had been before.  He'd done loathsome things for which he could never hope for forgiveness.

And that's... y'know... just about that.  The game system doesn't have a mechanic for lowering either Weariness or Self-Loathing.  It only raises Love.  Which said to me, in play, "This isn't about becoming less of a loser.  It's about needing to be loved even though you're a loser."

[Vaxalon]

Okay, that's fine, it still offers a step up.  "Unloved loser servant of evil" is lower than "Loved loser ex-servant of evil".

Both of them need to be loved, both at the beginning and the end; it's just that at the end, the loser recognizes that need, and to some small extent has fulfilled it.

[lumpley]

Also worth noting: [kpfs] A Startling Postscript.

Fred, imagine this. You're playing a character whom you hate. Your friends all hate him too. He's the worst person you can think of, and you're constantly goaded to make him even worse. Pretty soon you're reaching way down and smearing your own shit on him, right? He does the worst things you've ever thought of. You loathe him with a pure and perfect self-loathing.

Self-forgiveness, okay, that's cool. Instead of hating him to death you start to feel sorry for him. Whatever.

But then your friends - your friends don't hate him to death either. He deserves it but they don't. Your friends see the worst you have to offer, you say to them the worst things you've ever said out loud, and what do they do? After they're done being disgusted and titillated, they respond with humanity and compassion, unasked for, unexpected. They treat your worst with grace.

And you treat their worst with grace.

Are you untouched by that? Not me, man.

-Vincent