Going for all its worth: Mechanics

[tj333]

I am currently working on an anime-based game. One of the main things that I have noticed is the inspirational materials (Yu Yu Hakusho, DragonBall(Z), Slayers, Naruto, and others) the conflicts frequently comes often comes down to the characters pushing themselves for all they are worth. The characters realizing that only their strongest technique will possible save them or despite being broken and beaten they keep going against the odds. I am trying to make the attitude of always fighting on despite the odds and just giving ones all a central theme to this game.


      In an effort to encourage this each character has a resource called Reserves that they can spend to ignore injuries, fatigue, or to increase what their best is.
      They are rewarded Reserves based on doing things where the odds are against them, entering into fights (Bigger reward for one on one challenges.), rolling 10 on d10 rolls in a fight/challenge and if the DM thinks the player is playing the attitude of going for it all.

      Also characters can gain many more of their advancement points if they work the fight so that they use all of their energy, are completely defeated (can sometimes still win the fight at this point), or performs a complete victory. This hopefully leads to effort rather then the end effect being rewarded.

      At a time when the character may lose the fight/challenge they can choose to take a certain amount of injury in order to keep the fight going.

      Finally the player can spend a meta-game resource called Coins of Fate to make the fight harder on himself as well as other things.
      If the fight is more difficult the character can gain more advancement points and have the opportunity to spontaneously advance his character during play. Spontaneous advancement is an advantage because actually advancing the character in this game is limited to certain GM approved times or when the character is having a difficult time of the fight and needs to be better in order to win.


      The main reasons for this posts is I think that more can be done this idea then I am currently doing with it but I just can't think of it.
      Part of what I am looking for is do you think this I have enough? Need to make changes to it? Add more?
      The other part is: Do you have any suggestions of what you think would encourage players into this style of play?

[clehrich]

I'm pretty sure this post should be in Indie Game Design, but I'll leave it to the moderator to shift it if necessary.

I guess my question is why the players don't just go for it every time, all the time, from the start.  I haven't seen a lot of these anime -- just bits here and there -- but it sounds to me like sort of what seemed silly in the much sillier show Voltron.  At the end of the episode, it finally occurs to them to "form Voltron" and "use blazing sword."  But why not do this in the first place?

So my question is what encourages the players to hold off on their big power until the end of the fight.  Or is this not what you want?

I suggest, by the by, that you post a lot more detail so we can look at how the crunchy bits work.  These questions seem like the sort of thing that depend very much on how the crunchy mechanics promote a style of gameplay.  This is System Does Matter at the sharp end, and some folks around here (not me, so much) are very, very good at analyzing this.  So more detail would really help.

[tj333]

I'm pretty sure this post should be in Indie Game Design, but I'll leave it to the moderator to shift it if necessary.

Yeah, I guess I am far enough along to consider what ever I do from now on one coherent game. Feels good to have that pointed out :) but I still need a name for it.

This is System Does Matter at the sharp end.

Good point. I'll see what the rest of the system has to offer in this way.

I'll also work towards getting more of the mechanics from paper to the Forge. Probaly be done that some time Monday.

This is not just a way not use the biggest attack possible.
How I handle player not just using the biggest attack is that an attack/technique can be defeated. The more often it is used the more chances there is for this to happen and when it happens the attack loses a portion of its effectiveness.

The main issue is how to encourage players into to act like the characters from the animes. Not just in some reward for good role playing sense but in what tactical decisions the player wants to make. The part that I am looking for here is the willingness of the player to pursue a goal until the end, until they have proven to everyone that they are the best and deserve to be noticed or it.

Hope this clears things up a little.

[tj333]

Some rules that can be quickly updated from V.3 to V.4. Tell me if you think more is needed. Italics indicates added thought that are not curently in the game rules.

Dice Mechanics
The dice rolling is handled by rolling the any number of dice from the characters action pool, adding the relevant stats, skills, and then bonuses for weapons and techniques used. Skills can cover anything that a player can possible think of a use for. The states are Strength, Quickness, Resistance, Perception, Charisma, and Power. The action pool is (Quickness + Resistance + Perception)/2. Strength and Charisma are added to damage. The Damage Threshold (DT) of the character is Resistance + Armor. The DT is the target number for any attacks against the character.

The Ideal
The ideal for the character is a sort of long term goal or way that the character lives his life. The driving force behind the character if you will. The ideal can be changed during play with the GMs agreement.

Samples
Power Slave
The power slave will do anything for power or to prove his power. The power slave believes that anything he can do with his power or to gain power is justified.

Fighter
The fighter lives for the thrill of the fight and believes that nothing else can compare to it. Fighters also often feel that the only true way to measure someone's worth is by fighting them.

Code of Honor
The character has a code of honor that he will not violate. The restrictions and tenants of this Code are the center of the character life. 3-4 tenants are a good start for a Code of Honor.

Vengeance
The character desires vengeance against a specific person or group and will use any means necessary to gain the vengeance that he desires.

Currently this only affects what kind of actions the character has to do to gain Coins of Fate. Maybe also extend to covering Reserves?

Combat Resources
An attack that would hit the target can be used to changed any of the condition, injury or fatigue of the target or the player having made the attack. This can be used to improve the level of any of these by one or to decrease it by one.

Condition
The condition of a character has 5 values, Victorious, Winning, Neutral, Losing, and Defeated. When the condition is changed on a character check his condition to that of his attacker's condition. If there is a difference of three levels, such as Winning versus Defeated the target of that attack is considered defeated in that fight. At the end of the fight as well as at the end of the scene all Condition ratings are returned to Neutral.
When a player's condition is Victorious or Defeated he gains 1 advancement point. This may only happen once in a scene.

Injury
The injury rating has four values. The injury rating is added to the number needed to generate a success on a die roll. The base difficulty is 6 (d10s being rolled) with each level of injury adding one to the difficulty up to 4. Any injury beyond 4 subtracts from the number of dice being rolled instead. A character ignores Injury equal to half his Toughness score.
If the character's injury rating is 5 above his Toughness he receives an advancement point. This can only happen one in a scene.

Fatigue
Every time that the die pool is refreshed in combat the character adds one to his fatigue level. Also for every action past the second performed by a character in one round an additional point of fatigue is gained. For each level of fatigue that the character has they removing one die from their action pool. At the end of the fight the character reduces his fatigue level by 3. At the end of the scene the character clears his fatigue entirely. A character ignores fatigue equal to his Toughness score

Ki Pool
Each character has a ki pool.The Kin Pool equals 4 times Power. Points are drawn from the ki pool to power their supernatural skills or to augment their mundane ones.
If a character spends his entire ki pool in one fight against one opponent he gains 1 advancement point.

[timfire]

One of the main things that I have noticed is the inspirational materials ... despite being broken and beaten they keep going against the odds.

I believe the above is key. You should think very hard about it.

There are 2 games recently that have tried to incorporate that idea into their mechanics. The first is 'Scarlet Wake'. That one is inspired by Kill Bill. The way it works is basically that when a character takes damage,  they gain a resource that they can later use to power themselves up. This sets things up so that you have to take a certain amount of damage before you can win.

The other is 'With Great Power...' That one attempts to emulate comic books, so it operates a little differently. With that one, the player actively choses to endanger 'aspects' (relationships, powers, etc.) in order to gain bonus cards (it uses playing cards) for defeating the GM. This too creates the effect that the character gets beat up a bit before making their final comeback.

That's the kind fo effect you want to emulate. The point is that it appears that the characters are about to lose, but then make a triumphant comeback. Thus, I would somehow make it a requirement that the characters take damage before they can use their special powers.

Here's my idea, feel free to use it (or not) -- As the characters take damage, they accumulate a resource that they use for their special powers. But they can't use the resource right away. They have to 'cash in' the resource. But once they cash in the resource, they can't accumulate anymore.

Get what I'm saying? The longer the player holds out (in other words, the more damage they take), the more powerful they become. In such a system, the most powerful character is the one that's brought to the brink of death - something that happens alot in those anime.

[timfire]

tj,

I think the rules you posted technically work, but I don't think they really emulate the effect you're going for. See my post above.

[tj333]

Thanks for the pointers there timfire. I think I see the problem now. With my system they could just finish the fight but had some encouragement to draw it out. With what you have suggested the fight needs to go on to the point of injuries and beatings before one side can put an end to the fight.

Now let us see...
For damage counters we have Condition, Injury, and Fatigue. When any of the damage counters are lowed the character gets Reserve points. A player could deal damage to himself in order to increase his own Reserves. In fact I think I will give the player the option to take 2 levels of injury to prevent a Condition change from happening that would cause them to lose a fight.

Now to expand the number of things that Reserves can be spent on. Start by having certain moves that either cannot be activated without certain amounts of Reserves being spent or are used at a noticeable penalty. When a move is activated with Reserves its effect is increased. Minimum Reserve costs depending on the power of the technique. Any move activated with reserves gains 2 automatic successes on the attack roll to help prevent if from missing.

Finally make it so that the fight cannot be decided unless an attack of a certain power is used. This leads to the players to working towards gaining sufficient Reserves if they cannot finish the fight otherwise.

Now all this is fine if you are losing the fight but I am thinking that I should add some ways for the guy winning the fight to gain some reserves so he doesn't have to be afreaid of trying to win a fight.

How does all this sound?

[FzGhouL]

Something that bewilders me is like...
How accurate and fair is your stat system? Is it slated towards one stat? Is there some sort of test you decided before you like, evaluated the stat?

Actually, reading this post reminded me that today I just added a skill in my game to convert damage taken, to Energy. :D.

Speed and Spirit is based alot on Anime ideas like that; Not on purpose really, just I know that the influence is there...specifically Naruto, because my magic system borrows the term "seals" from Naruto.

Anyways; Back to the main point. Your combat resolution has some cool features, but the stat system you use doesn't seem to enforce the combat system. I suggest you take a totally unique approach to a few of the stats, and cast out the idea of stealing ideas from other games unless they truly fit your mold. Otherwise, basically no matter what you do, your main idea will be on the back burner if you take too much from other systems.

[timfire]

Now all this is fine if you are losing the fight but I am thinking that I should add some ways for the guy winning the fight to gain some reserves so he doesn't have to be afreaid of trying to win a fight.

I'll respond to your actual mechanics when I have a bit more time. But to this I'll say: If you're winning the fight without reserves, why worry?

In the anime I'm thinking about, the 'Big Moves' only come out after the fighters have started to lose (or occasionally as a 'finishing' move to end a fight).

I don't understand what's the issue here. What are thinking about?

[tj333]

... Is it slated towards one stat? Is there some sort of test you decided before you like, evaluated the stat? ... but the stat system you use doesn't seem to enforce the combat system. I suggest you take a totally unique approach to a few of the stats, and cast out the idea of stealing ideas from other games unless they truly fit your mold. Otherwise, basically no matter what you do, your main idea will be on the back burner if you take too much from other systems.

Well I thought that I had a fairly unique combat system. But looking back on what I posted here very little of that uniqueness that is present so I will leave that for another thread.

Now for how balanced the stats are I do think the Resistance stat gets most of the go and I have been looking at that as well.

FzGhoul, you say that I am stealing from other games, which is true. This started off as a conversion of Vampire : The Masquerade. But I thought that it had change enough since then that little to nothing was left of that game aside from d10 dice.
Is there anything in specific that you think I am stealing from other games and need to remove to improve mine? Or is it more a general feeling that you are getting?

... But to this I'll say: If you're winning the fight without reserves, why worry?

... (or occasionally as a 'finishing' move to end a fight).

I don't understand what's the issue here. What are thinking about?

I guess its because it could be used as a finishing move and at times the first move of the fight. Perhaps these instances are rare enough that Reserves kept from previous fights and the small amount of damage they are likely to take in a fight you are winning will likely be enough to perform it as a finishing move often enough. Though it is not much of a worry so we can probably leave it until further play testing.

[daMoose_Neo]

DBZ is the only one I am really familiar with, though I have seen a bit of Hakusho.

If you look at the anime, however, it all works out: for example unless its one bout RIGHT AFTER ANOTHER Goku isn't all that keyed up about anything and it takes him a bit to get that momentum going again for a worthy foe (the weaklings, well...)
So, take a page from the anime. If the character gets more than a day of rest, they regain that health but lose those reserves. If you ARE dealing with one bout right after another, structure the abilities so that what is accessable is just a little bit weaker than the next Big Bad thats thrown at them- if they fire off the move, it just ups the bad guy's reserves, leaving you drained and succesptable to the BB's ungodly move.
Do it right and the bout COULD end in one exchange...and the player would lose~

[timfire]

Perhaps these instances are rare enough that Reserves kept from previous fights and the small amount of damage they are likely to take in a fight you are winning will likely be enough to perform it as a finishing move often enough.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Let me expand my thoughts. If your opponent is anything near "worthy" you're going to take a hit or two. The only time you're not going to take any damage is against a mook/weakling. In that case, who cares? Does Goku or any of those guys waste energy on mooks?

[John Burdick]

Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Let me expand my thoughts. If your opponent is anything near "worthy" you're going to take a hit or two. The only time you're not going to take any damage is against a mook/weakling. In that case, who cares? Does Goku or any of those guys waste energy on mooks?

His main concern is to not accidentally kill the weak (almost everyone). After 15 episodes of gradual escalation in a single fight scene, Goku starts to fight strongly having concluded that his opponent can participate. The bad guys take everything their victim can dish out, and then kill him contemptuously. They don't want to miss a chance to humilate.

Dragonball isn't typical for a fighting anime. Here's how I'd do it: Use DC Heroes. All combat can kill. If you kill you lose. You're as strong as superman, what level of killing punch will leave your opponent alive.

John

[FzGhouL]

Sorry, I didn't mean stealing in an offensive way, heh..I meant it like borrowing.

But I dunno, Its not a fair evaluation, because you haven't given enough detail about it to really show you are pretty much ripping something.

But your stat like, paradigm, seems to be similar to many others I've read...but like I said, post a complete/detailed system and you could be very unique, most skeletal structures do look similar.

In Speed and Spirit, the way I limit all-out attacks to begin with is pretty multi-faceated.

1) Hard to recover; You don't want your opponent living because then they get to take advantage of you
2) A required concentration level; you focus on the battle more as time goes on.
3) For your best attacks to work best, the emotions have to be played right; An emotion roll with modifiers that alters stats.

There are other reasons, but it won't make sense unless I describe my system in detail.

[tj333]

daMoose_Neo: I like the idea of losing reserves when you regain your health. Perhaps have them able to dump Reserves into regaining some health between fights if deemed appropriate by the GM. Sometimes it takes days in the shows and other times they are ready to go again after they ran down the hallway. If someone has a healing ability they can heal without having losing Reserves.
As for the fight being over in one exchange I made it so that Condition can only be changed once per exchange per character. It take at least 2 exchanges to create the Condition difference to end the fight. That is still fast and could consist of only pre fight insults and then blowing your opponent away with your super move. So far only one player have pulled this off.

timefire: I don't know about Goku but the only time much energy is spent against mooks is if they need to clear a lot of them at once.

John BurdickP: I don't think losing if you kill your opponent would really fit the game. To me the death of an opponent should have more to do with the fighters and what their relationship is.
Currently whoever wins the fight can decide if they want to kill their opponent or not. The only defense a PC/NPC has against this choice is to use a Coin of Fate if they have one to put their death off to another fight.

FzGhoul: You know, when ever I see you name I just think of a plush fuzzy ghoul. Kinda like the Cthuulu plushie.
No offense taken. When you start with a game that borrows as much as mine did taking offense about it out make no sense.
I think the detailed of my combat system can be left until my next thread unless someone here thinks that I need to post them for this one.