Banthas in the Vineyard, Redux

[Vaxalon]

Droid "slavery" is an issue that never comes up in the movies.  I wouldn't make it a part of any SW game I ran.

I agreed with Clinton that the coat rules are best used for the lightsaber(s) that the jedi carries, rather than robes.

I think I'll leave it up to the player, how to handle an "offhand" lightsaber... if it's as good as any other lightsaber, I'll give it 2d6+4, if it's not, then 1d6+4.

[lumpley]

Here's the rules answer on offhand lightsabers: a post of mine in [DitV] Dealing with *reservoir* Dogs :).

-Vincent

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Here's the rules answer on offhand lightsabers: a post of mine in [DitV] Dealing with *reservoir* Dogs :).

-Vincent

Doh! I knew that, and forgot about it.

So - I'm definitely running this as a one-shot one Sunday. Vincent, you mind if I write up my rules mods and distribute it on the down-low? (There's that whole Star Wars IP to deal with.)

[Vaxalon]

Nifty.

Now I'll hijack my own thread here, now that the mechanics issues seem to have been handled:

What do you think of the campaign premise I posted upthread?

[Vaxalon]

So - I'm definitely running this as a one-shot one Sunday.

Any chance you could come on IRC and run this as a one-shot sometime?

[lumpley]

Vincent, you mind if I write up my rules mods and distribute it on the down-low? (There's that whole Star Wars IP to deal with.)

I don't mind a bit!

-Vincent

[zach20]

I know this post is kind of behind but I like the idea for a Jedi type Dogs, I do agree that a Lightsaber would be a sign of office and remember that Luke also carried a blaster. So there is a possibility that you could use that for Coat & Gun. And it is true that most Jedi have to make there own Lightsaber at the end of there training and are unique to the Jedi if any of you have read Yong Jedi Knights they have a part explaining this one apprentice nearly gets herself killed and looses here arm in the process. As for setting I would say that the best spot for a dog's campaign would be in the era of Knights of the Old Republic. Or for people that know the setting well The New Jedi Order.

[Vaxalon]

New Jedi Order doesn't have the mass death of darkside jedi that post-KOTOR does.

[zach20]

true, there is the jedi acadamy area for a setting

[lupis42]

First: The Dark Side is not just seductive, it has a will of its own.  As players become ...more aqquainted... with its power, they may find themselves in cnflict with themselves, just trying to remain in control.  If that happens, it should probably be similar to the character creation conflict, with the GM playing the tempation.  Only difference is, the GM gets any dice the player has for relationships to the Dark Side, or powerful Dark Side traits. If the player loses, the player MUST call upon the Dark Side, and suffer the appropriate fall-out.  
Second: Much mention has been made of the various characters occasional casual harming of others.  Almost always, however, less overall harm was done than if that harm had not been done, i.e. if Luke fails to destroy the Death Star, many planets, and trillions of people, will be wiped out of existence.  If Luke doesn't take direct and threatening action against the Gamorreans, they will likely attack him, causing him to kill or maim them in his own defense, which is definitely worse than brief pain.  If Obi-wan doesn't stop the man in the cantina IMMEDIATELY, people will almost certainly get shot.  
The gist of the second point is that while motivations are most important in playing jedi, if a jedi harms innocents without greater purpose, even through negligence, the jedi has done evil, and would face dark side related fallout.
Oh, and a few little points in response to various things from within this thread, and the origional:  
There are plenty of instances in the various bits of literature of cultish small groups of darksiders, especially centered around a strong central figure.  
The dark side feeds on emotions, (anger, fear, and agression) which are typcially the cause of, and the result of, evil.  To that end, dark jedi need not be in positions of power, but oppressive governments, large scale prejudices, and wars of expansion all  serve to spread these emotions on a far greater scale than dark jedi going pscho in small communities, so the dark side will tend to encourage ambition.  
Force strength could be a single d6, rolled whenever a character calls upon the force for an action.  It would, however, only be usable for that action (you don't have to use it all, you can take other dice from your pool, but you can't save it, you must roll it again when next you need it).  This is meant to allow, in game mechanics, for the fact that jedi are depicted as poseesing more or less limitless resources of physical and mental energy, as long as they continue to draw upon the force, in control of theselves and with good intentions, and one of the books (I forget which one, so forgive the unattributed quote) has a character speak of battleing jedi "Because they fight for life, life fights with them, and while they fight for life, they cannot be defeated."  If rolled for reasons other than knowledge and defense, however, (as determined by the roller) it carries with it an IMMEDIATE 1d4 relationship to the dark side.  

Whew.  That was almost certainly longer than it had to be, but it's my first post (not just to the threat, but to the forum).  I just started playing DitV this weekend, and I love the game, and as a longstanding (I saw RotJ in theaters, as an infant, and was hooked immediately) SW geek, I felt I had to say something.  I didn't quite intend to say this much, but it's a fascinating concept.  If anyone gets around to putting this together as a supplemental pack, I would be happy to help, and I recommend you read the old Star Wars 2nd ed. Core book, which has alot of helpful advice for GMs about what kinds of things make jedi susceptible to the Dark Side.  
Oh, btw, hi, I'm Matt

[Vaxalon]

You have a lot of interesting ideas wound up in that post, lupis, let me see if I can address them one at a time:

"The dark side is not just seductive, it has a will of its own."

I prefer to let my players decide when their characters are wrestling with the dark side.  I don't like anything that smacks of deprotagonization.

"The gist of the second point is that while motivations are most important in playing jedi, if a jedi harms innocents without greater purpose, even through negligence, the jedi has done evil, and would face dark side related fallout."

What you seem to be saying, is that if a jedi attempts to do the right thing, but fails, and innocents are harmed as a result, that there should be dark side fallout.  I don't agree with this.  When *I* run the game, the player desides when there's dark side fallout... because the player ALWAYS decides what his fallout is.

"The dark side feeds on emotions, (anger, fear, and agression) which are typcially the cause of, and the result of, evil. To that end, dark jedi need not be in positions of power, but oppressive governments, large scale prejudices, and wars of expansion all serve to spread these emotions on a far greater scale than dark jedi going pscho in small communities, so the dark side will tend to encourage ambition. "

The dark side also wants to remain hidden.  Ambition attracts attention; if the dark side has just been dealt a major blow (the destruction of the Star Forge and the defeat of Malak) then it's  not going to be wanting to poke its head up immediately.  It's going to be wanting to cultivate secret centers of power that can support its eventual return to the galactic stage.

That's how it will work in MY game anyways.

"Force strength could be a single d6, rolled whenever a character calls upon the force for an action."

The strength of a particular character with the Force could be ANY size attribute, and it can concievably grow with time.  I'm not going to dictate to the players how much to put into that.

"Because they fight for life, life fights with them, and while they fight for life, they cannot be defeated."

Clearly, this is not 100% true.  Jedi get defeated in the canon (as opposed to the Extended Universe) on many occasions, even when they're fighting on the side of life.  Dozens of Jedi fall in the arena scene in episode 2.  Before episode 4, (possibly in episode 3) Darth Vader kills lots more Jedi.

I'm not saying you are WRONG on any of these points.  I'm just saying that I have good reasons for not doing things the way you describe.

[lupis42]

Your explanations make alot of sense, and of course you and your player should run the game in the manner that works best for you.  
A few clarifications though:  I don't mean to say that when jedi try to do the right thing, but fail, there would be darkside fallout.  I mean that when jedi allpw innocents to be harmed without seeking another way there should be darkside fallout.  If, for example, a jedi kills the carrier of an infections disease because there is no cure, and no other way to prevent to the disease from spreading, there would be no darkside fallout, but if the jedi did so without first determining that there was no other way, there should be.  I don't mean to suggest that it should be GM imposed, rather, its somthing the players should take into consideration when determining fallout.  
(In general, I don't mean to suggest that anything has to be either GM or player determined per se, I simply suggest things that I think should come up, although I think the idea of an unexpected temptaion by the darkside would be an interesting thing to write into a 'town').  
The Dark Side's desire to remain hidden is something I hadn't thought about, but it makes alot of sense.  Kudos.
As for the force strength thing, the size of the die is more or less irrelevant, the point is that unlike a regular trait, this one can be rolled repeatedly within a single conflict, but cannot be carried over.  It functions on a completely independant basis.  The idea here, as reflected in the quote is not that jedi are invulnerable, but that they have a limitless source of energy aiding them, and can draw from it steadily for as long as they need to.  They can still be defeated, and they will also frequently choose their own death as an alternative to a percieved greater evil of similar immediacy.  (For example, a jedi might surrender to execution rather than have innocents executed in his place, if there was no other way to save them).  Because dark jedi also draw on the force, and because the degree to which jedi can draw on the force at any one time are both limited, many jedi will still die in battle, but from being overwhelmed, overpowered, or unlucky, not from lack of endurance.
Hope this explains a bit more of my thinking, and of course, use what works for you, ignore what doesn't.  I won't be offended.  If you ever codify any of it though, and actually make that pdf mentioned earlier, let me know as I'd love a copy.  
matt

[Vaxalon]

Hm, I think I see what you are talking about, with regard to the force die.

If you make it a SINGLE die, or one for drawing on the light side and one for drawing on the dark side, then conflicts can still end, because the Jedi will need TWO dice whenever it's his turn to act.  Against anyone who isn't drawing on the force, he'll have a HUGE advantage, though.

I don't see the number of dice on either side as really having to do with "endurance" though.

I'll have to think about this one.

[lupis42]

Endurance may be the wrong word.  You have it exactly though.  And remember, jedi have huge advantges over everyone else, at almost any physical or mental task, especially things requiring emotional stability, or insight.

[avram]

Jedi, according to the prequel trilogy, are supposed to avoid connections, passions, loves. Relationships should be really interesting in this game.