[Nine Worlds] High-level play kicks into gear

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

So, in the last session, we had our first major god appearance and conflict, barring Athena in the first session. As of the end of the next-to-last session and most of the way through this past one, we've reached the point in which everyone's "first wave" of conflict is pretty much resolved. Gelons, Tod's character, has a fledgling sea-god under his wing, and has dealt with a complex set of hassles involving Proteus and Nereus. Manto, Maura's character, has settled all sorts of things about the Golden Fleece and her own economic situation. Chione, Julie's character, has managed to extricate herself from a political and military mess on Mars, as well as from a family dispute. Basically, although not all of the characters' starting Muses are resolved, most of them are, and the remaining ones have bulked into larger problems, interlinked with the newer Muses. As I put it, the first "short novel" is pretty much over.

Furthermore, through some intentional shenanigans on the players' narrations, they've managed to bring their characters into direct contact with one another and often share conflicts now. Fortunately, we're not seeing any of the instant blood-brother, party mentality ... half the time they run conflicts with each other to see who gets their way about something. But at this point, any decision made by any player-character does have an impact on the plans and actions of both of the others. (Oh, and let's not forget, one of the reasons they like to run inter-character conflicts is because one of them will probably end up with Tricks. It's a Muse-amplifying tactic, and the loser is banking on a net benefit, I think.) I'm not yet seeing a definite set of relationships and contrasting values among the player-characters, but this group tends to avoid much investigation of that angle of play, in general.

So now what? Well, the characters are just chock-full of spendable currency, and raring to go over their various Muses, which as I say are beginning to poke at various sensitive anatomical parts of the Honchos of the setting.

Spendable currency
Now that we're finally using the rules for acquiring Valor and Pride correctly, the players are beefing up their sheets by buying Talismans and improving their attributes. Chione has usually emphasized Arete to deal with problems, hence now has scary Urges. She also just became the first player-character to acquire the Golden Fleece as a Talisman. Gelons has a big ol' Atlantean warship as a Talisman now, plus he did something that the rules have no provision for - transformed an NPC into an Archon. We'll have to talk about that later, Matt. Manto, although by far and away the Hubris Queen of the game, has hoarded her Pride for a while in anticipation of a particular conflict she has her heart set on.

All of this led us into immediate rules-issues about Talismans and Muses. Which is why it's good to have the game designer's phone number; we called up the Nine Worlds Help Desk and the staff member there proved very helpful.

As a starting point, what are the limits on Valor and Pride? Are they capped at nine, like everything else? Which renders some of the rules about attribute increase nonsensical? The desk quickly clarified to us that these scores, as well as Force, have no upper limit.

Do Talismans have Muses? The book is fairly clear that Talismans should be considered fully-independent game entities, more or less additional player-characters. However, this didn't quite sit right with us, and it seemed more sensible to us that Tricks earned by a victorious Talisman ought to belong to the player relative to the primary player-character. That player-character might choose to utilize various currency resources to beef up the Talisman, for instance, but that is just one option. Basically, the player-character is the one who accumulates Muse points from Talismanic victories, and spends and applies them as he or she sees fit. The help desk agreed that this was the best approach.

After this conversation, during play, we ran into another bit of a conundrum ... which is that a starting Talisman (say, bought with 9 or 10 points of Pride) is pretty wimpy. Including it in a conflict is a good way to get it destroyed. H'm. More thoughts and ideas about that seem called for.

Here's another important factor, although a little less permanent: Metamorphosis and locking. It turns out that once a whole bunch of locks are in play, for whatever reasons, they are vulnerable to shifting about via Metamorphosis. The players have discovered that, armed with about four or five Metamorphosis Tricks, they can shift some Urge scores into high gear, then shift some lock points onto it. And since one can freely grab and shove score values around among characters, not just within one character, this is a hugely important part of play. Chione in particular is beefed up to a huge Chaos value through this tactic (in addition to spending lots of Valor to improve the base values), so she's now all death-chick'd out. The other characters are also similarly tweaked and locked more to the players' tastes, in contrast to their cursing when I first imposed the various locks in ways that didn't benefit them.

Askance glances at gods
The players are fully aware that their characters have just hopped up into the larger-scale power structure of the Nine Worlds. Chione's stuff is all about Ares, Manto's is all about Hades and Hermes, and Gelons' stuff is all about Atlas (and more subtly, Poseidon). H'm, I said, it's time just to bring them right on in there. My basis for doing so is strictly in accord with the points I made in [Nine Worlds] Slow and careful rules and examples, under the subheading Conflict proposal and NPC introduction. I'm taking that approach to play very seriously, and Matt, you might consider explaining that in your text as deeply as you explain (e.g.) narration rights during conflict resolution.

As it happened, the first face-off came about between Chione and Ares. Partly this was due to me acting pretty proactively as GM - the events of recent sessions pretty much gave Ares no choice, and the characters' extensive use of Hubris in their latest escapade (getting the Fleece back again), as well as a couple of other details, led me to say, "OK, Ares basically extradites Chione back to Mars, to be included in the trial of her family, or rather, hearings." The group chose not to treat this as a conflict, i.e., Chione did not resist or try to escape. So off she goes.

We moved straight into the hearings. This led to a series of conflicts, although some of the conflicts that might have been troublesome had been neatly side-stepped by Julie's choices earlier in play. For instance, I'd set up some nasty conflicts of interests among the two Gorgon sisters and their nephew Chrysaor, but Julie had cunningly figured out how to get her way (in Chrysaor's interest) while still maintaining herself in one of the aunt's good graces. So that didn't have to muddy things at this point.

Without boring you all about the details of the conflict situation, the rules boiled down to a big contest between Chrysaor and Chione on one side vs. Ares and Tityos on another. Chrysaor is Chione's ancestor; Tityos is a turncoat Titan who hates Chione and has fingered her work for the Free Spartan League to Ares (oops!). The real stakes are whether Ares is going to use the whole family (which includes the Nine Worlds versions of Cerberus, Geryon, the Lernean Hydra, and many other monsters, all of whom are related and ultimately descended from the Gorgons) as an example, or embrace them as part of his power structure.

However, Julie chose not to treat this conflict as a Champion or Usurper situation. Strategically this was probably wise, as the other player-characters were not involved (due to a slight miscommunication among us at the table, actually) and Ares looked mighty nasty with all that Force in hand.

... but Chione won. When all the hands were pulled, and we were looking at them before revealing them, I found that two of my three characters were holding really ugly Chaos hands. Chaos is also Ares' best Urge. It was looking bad for Chione, even though (as I could see and Julie could not), Chrysaor had beaten Tityos. What did Julie do? She called Trump - Chaos, which was essentially what I was about to do anyway. H'm! All of a sudden, Ares' huge Force value meant absolutely nothing. If the opponent calls Trump in your best suit, Trump and bidding for it are irrelevant. It would all come down to Fate value after all.

Let me pull out the notebook, because this was fun. Tityos had the low Fate at 7 (by staying with the Chaos Trump, Ares basically threw him to the wolves, i.e. Chrysaor). Chrysaor had 9. Ares had 12, a very nasty Fate value, and worth the Trump (he wouldn't have had a higher value by calling Trump for anything else). Chione had ... 14. This was monstrously high for Chione, as Julie typically ended up with 6's and 8's and stuff like that in previous conflicts.

This outcome was especially nice since Chione has kind of been the whipping girl of the story so far, as Julie deliberately chose some starting Muses that acted at cross-purposes. She only really managed to get them firing in tandem over the last two sessions. Anyway, Chrysaor kicked the crap out of Tityos in physical conflict, and Chione ended up securing the favor of Ares for the family.

Overall, what this means to me is that the characters are more ready to face up to the gods than the players might think, much in the sense that sometimes a group is startled when a Minion successfully defies the Master in My Life With Master. Yes, luck was involved (good Chaos for both of the main combatants, thus obviating the role of Trump), but it was a clear and simple victory by the rules. If Julie had chosen for this to be a Champion conflict (she was using Arete), Chione would be a Champion of Ares right now.

Also, for future purposes, I'm thinking that the gods are pre-prepped for more victories given all that Force, but especially if the players are careful, that doesn't mean that the gods will necessarily always be able to eliminate (i.e. kill) those who challenge them. I think that player-characters will, if they lose to a god, have much angst and agony to suffer through (i.e. turned into an animal, cursed, messed-with, etc), but they will also, by the rules, be pre-disposed to undergo transformative adventures and bounce back, eventually.

And finally, alliances among the player-characters are quite likely to out-Force a god. It's not unlikely to find three player-characters firing with over ten or twenty points of Valor and/or Pride available for each. So although we haven't seen that get into play yet, people are starting to Trump more aggressively and I suspect that conflicts with the likes of Hermes or Hades will start to show collaborative Trumping to favor the high-ball character - which will quite likely not go to the god's advantage. There's a good reason for the gods to fear the Archons ...

Best,
Ron

P.S. Previous threads about this game: [Nine Worlds] Pop-sci Greek fantasy, plus murder and sex and [Nine Worlds] Slow and careful rules and examples, plus links within those threads.

[Eero Tuovinen]

If Julie had chosen for this to be a Champion conflict (she was using Arete), Chione would be a Champion of Ares right now.

In the interest of clarifying the rules, aren't these two points in there somewhere:
- Other characters cannot participate in a Champion/Usurper conflict. Only the god, PC and their talismans.
- The conflict continues until one participant is dropped to 0 Virtue. If I remember it right, it even says that the PC has to lose all Muses, too, before the conflict ends (which I might not agree with).

From reading your description it seems that you'd have been willing to allow other characters and would have only played the one hand. Did I misunderstand, or am I misremembering the rules?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eero,

You're misunderstanding slightly, but it was a slightly confusing explanation.

1. It wasn't a Champion conflict at all. Hence the other characters were eligible. It just so happens that they didn't participate.

My final points in the posts were referring to conflicts with the gods in any sense, and the issue of teamwork among player-characters would not apply to Champion or Usurper conflicts.

2. You're right that I over-stated the victory slightly. The single hand that defined this conflict (Julie chose to end it, sensibly) would not have sufficed for her to become Champion.

However, she did gain a wickedly high number of Tricks, and could have done very terrible things to Ares if she wanted to continue the discussion, especially since Chrysaor skunked Tityos so badly and could have done the same to him. (And Julie had swiped all of Ares' Tricks hence Chrysaor was protected.) She couldn't have reduced Ares to 0 Power right at that moment, but she could have begun a new round from a signficantly more powerful relative position.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Snyder]

MAN this is a great conflict. We've talked previously about some of the text's flaws, but this conflict between Chione and Ares (and the other participants) is brilliant! Exactly how I envisioned the game in action. Great!

After that round, it's hard to say who would have won had this been a Champion situation. Certainly, Chione has the advantage. Presumably, she would have diminished Ares' Chaos Urge, or possibly his Power. But, he still has all that nasty Force, while she lost some herself. (Oh yeah, which virtue was she using? Arete or Hubris? I assume Hubris, since you mentioned she's been kicking it up. Also, given that choice, how did she describe the scene? Julie?)

Some other quick thoughts . . .

The other characters are also similarly tweaked and locked more to the players' tastes, in contrast to their cursing when I first imposed the various locks in ways that didn't benefit them.

The Help Desk yelps with joy!

Matt, you might consider explaining that in your text as deeply as you explain (e.g.) narration rights during conflict resolution.

Gotcha. Agreed and so noted.

To Eero

If I remember it right, it even says that the PC has to lose all Muses, too, before the conflict ends (which I might not agree with).

I don't agree with it either. That's not how is supposed to work if the PC wins. I think you're talking about when the PC loses. The player can keep sacrificing Muses to stay alive. To be reallly, mostly, truly dead, the player would have to have first expended his Muses in desperation.

But, the player needn't sacrifice Muses if he's winning! He gets to keep those if he wins (either becoming Primarch or becoming a Champion).

Thanks for using the Nine Worlds Help Desk. Have a nice day!

[jrs]

(Oh yeah, which virtue was she using? Arete or Hubris? I assume Hubris, since you mentioned she's been kicking it up. Also, given that choice, how did she describe the scene? Julie?)

Hubris?  Against Ares?  You must be kidding.  Arete, baby!  Basically, Chione dumped the newly acquired golden fleece onto the table (literally), and pledged to re-sanctify Ares' shrine--the one that once housed the fleece before Jason took it.  On condition that Ares would drop all charges against my family and smile favorably upon us.  There was a bit more, but that was the jist of it.  Re-sanctify Ares shrine is now a powerful muse for Chione.  And the recent squabbling in the family over the fleece has been subdued (for now).  

Honestly, I didn't even consider this as a champion opportunity.  I really didn't expect to have such a good fate score in hand.

I could use some help on understanding talismans.  I so wanted to use the golden fleece mechanically, not just narratively, in this conflict.  I only just bought it and so it does not have strong scores.  It simply seemed far too vulnerable, that I chose not to include it.  Imaginatively, I can explain its small point value due to its questionable ownership.  Is this how talismans should be viewed?

Julie

[Matt Snyder]

I could use some help on understanding talismans.  I so wanted to use the golden fleece mechanically, not just narratively, in this conflict.  I only just bought it and so it does not have strong scores.  It simply seemed far too vulnerable, that I chose not to include it.  Imaginatively, I can explain its small point value due to its questionable ownership.  Is this how talismans should be viewed?

Julie

Absolutely. That's entirely fitting. (And your narration sounds like great fun! Also very fitting to lay it all out on the table, literally. Cool!)

I note concern on your part, however, that the Talisman is relatively weak. The only way to increase its effectiveness is by increasing its abilities, the using Locks to keep 'em that way. It's one of the risks of buying a Talisman "too low." But, they can have real advantages as well.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Quick clarifier:

Manto = Maura's character, serious Hubris throughout most of play.

Gelons = Tod's character, pretty much half-and-half Hubris and Arete throughout play.

Chione = Julie's character, mostly Arete throughout play with one or two ventures into Hubris.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Snyder]

Yes, I confused Manto and Chione regarding their Arete and Hubris tendencies. My mistake!

[Thor Olavsrud]

I note concern on your part, however, that the Talisman is relatively weak. The only way to increase its effectiveness is by increasing its abilities, the using Locks to keep 'em that way. It's one of the risks of buying a Talisman "too low." But, they can have real advantages as well.

Apologies to Ron if this is dragging the thread off-topic, but I'm wondering if Pride points could be spent to improve Talismans in the same way that Valor is used to improve attributes?

I realize the text does not address this at all, so I'm assuming that it was not intended, but I'm curious what you think of it, and whether it would overbalance the reward system or not.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

H'm, my thought would be that Pride points could be spent later to upgrade Talisman's Power and Urges on a 1:1 basis, just like the original values were bought in the first places.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Snyder]

I almost suggested exactly that, fellas, in my reply to Julie.

But, I decided against it ... strongly. That's because Talisman's are the product of The Choice. Using the exactly opposite product of The Choice to boost them contradicts the spirit of the game. I think it dilutes meaning and theme-answered.

It also makes Pride much more valuable and important than Hubris. Players will slant that way, I think. They'll see the greater value in accruing more Pride. That's not what I want to see happen.

That's the Heavy Handed Designer talking. It's the way I'd play it.

But, of course, your idea makes sense, especially in terms of currency and how the rewards interact with one another.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hi Matt,

That makes a lot of sense and I don't think it's heavy handed at all. I knew there was likely a very good reason for it, but I wasn't seeing it. Reinforcing The Choice is a great reason.

It seems that with this in mind, and the fact that each Talisman fills up a Muse "slot," it makes the most sense to bank those Pride points until you can get the Talisman you really want. Or use your Urges to amp the scores and then Lock them, as you mentioned previously. Cool.

[jrs]

Matt,

I am confused by your last post.  Pride is gained through choosing Hubris during conflicts, well, once the relevant muse is resolved, right?  How Pride could be construed as more important than Hubris puzzles me.  Admittedly, my accumulated Pride was rather small.  I only used something like 5-6 points to create the golden fleece as a talisman.   I could not wait until I had more Pride-- the timing was perfect in game.  I was assuming that I would be able to use some sort of currency to increase its scores during play.  And, not simply through forced locks on the scores, I mean some form of conversion of tricks or Pride.

Julie

Edited out idiocy on my part; not to imply that it's completely gone.

[Matt Snyder]

Once again, my fingers are faster than my brain.

The suggestion I was going to pose to you was based on spending Valor to increase a Talisman's abilities just like you can with your PC. When Ron suggested this idea, I still had Valor in my head and posted with that assumption.

Ron's suggestion would work, probably, but what then is the limit for Talismans? Should there be one? Maybe the cap is the univeral 9.

That's something I want to think about (and feel free to discuss it here or elsewhere).  Does offering that possibility makes Hubris-based victories more valuable than Arete-based ones because you can 1) create Talismans and 2) make them VERY effective later on? Hmm ...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Matt,

I think that's the only sensible solution. Here's why.

1. The same points improve Talismans which buy them. Same source, same decisions, same general philosophy. All good on that one.

2. Talismans can be killed, and they have no Muses to protect them when driven to Power 0. They are hence more vulnerable than the improvements that Valor brings.

3. Talismans are not effective and also quite vulnerable when they're small. There's a good reason to create a Talisman if it's small (and I'm talking 10-12 points!! that's a lot of Pride!), but not much reason to use it yet. I think really effective, really significant Talismans will end up costing as much as significant Valor-based boosts to Virtues and Urges will, in the long run.

4. Hubris pisses off the gods. Make Talismans? You've by definition offended a god, my friend. That is a little piece of the universe which is no longer affected by his or her will, by his or her friends' will, nor by any of the multitide of nymphs and spirits who are supposed to have influence over it.

"My talisman is this cool coin!" Really. Hades isn't going to like that; the god of the underworld is also the god of wealth. How'd you like to meet the Men-in-Black agents of Cerberus? And hey, I betcha Hermes, god of commerce isn't going to be pleased either. Want your character's credit rating slashed?

And so on ... Valor-based attributes will make you tough and scary, but they won't ipso facto piss off the gods.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Oh, and yeah, Power and Urges should be capped at 9 for Talismans, just like they are for everything else in the universe. No biggie there.