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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 81 - most online ever: 565 (October 17, 2020, 02:08:06 PM)
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Author Topic: Clarify something for me...  (Read 11438 times)
Vaxalon
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« on: March 29, 2005, 10:55:02 AM »

An event hits the table, played by the guy to my right.

"A giant robot runs amok in Central City."

It comes out, as usual, with two dice on it... one red, one blue.  The red one is usually "Villain" and the blue one is usually "Hero".

I'm playing a villain, Doctor Pipewrench.

I use my powers to roll up the "hero" die.  "Noone trashes this city but me!"  I stake the debt that I just earned on that die.

The other players spend their actions putting other events and goals into play.

Next page.  I'm first to claim.  I claim the "hero" side of the "A giant robot runs amok in Central City." event.

One of the other players, Joe, who's also got a villain, seeing a possible easy story token in it for him, claims the "villain" side.

I take my turn.  I roll up the die again, take the resulting debt, and split it.  I react to my own roll by rolling up again.  It's a good score.

Play goes around to the other villain. He makes a token resistance, staking just one debt.

The round comes to an end.  The Event resolves.  It's my turn to narrate...

Does the fact that I've been playing the "hero" side of the conflict mean that I'm constrained to narrate a heroic conclusion to the event?
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
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TonyLB
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2005, 11:55:15 AM »

Absolutely not.  They're only "usually" hero and villain dice.

p. 26:  "Before being rolled the dice don't represent any particular side.  Once someone roles one, it now represents their side."

If you've got two villains competing in a Conflict, and no heroes then it's going to be something villainous pretty much any way it falls out.  They're debating about whose brand of villainy.
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Vaxalon
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2005, 12:02:56 PM »

Hm.

Okay... so after I roll a die as my action, it's MY die, and if it (and any dice spawned from it) win, *I* win, no matter who else may have reacted to it?

Or does owning a die require staking debt?
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
TonyLB
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2005, 12:29:03 PM »

Ah... a different question, I think.  In your first example there was no mention of anyone other than you deciding what the blue die stood for, right?

But if you roll up the blue die, then someone else allies with you and resolves the blue die, can they do something radically different than your obvious intent?

Can, to use a real-play example, a hero resolve the heroic side of "Goal:  Assassinate President on Live Television" (i.e. the one where that plan fails) to say that the Prez still gets killed, but it's not on live TV?  Even if only that player, among the three players who contributed to the heroic side, favors that solution?

Yes, he can.  If you want to undeniably own the die then you have to stake Debt, and make it a die created because of your Debt.  If you can't trust your allies things get very tricky.
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Vaxalon
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2005, 12:35:31 PM »

I now see the value of the claiming mechanic, when I hadn't before.

Really... dice don't have sides, at all, not until they're claimed.

You know, during the claiming phase, it should be legal to create a one-die, one-point side, with debt unstaked, as a third side, at that point.

Otherwise you run the risk of having two villains claim both sides of an event, thereby giving the heroes no chance to create a "heroic" resolution.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
TonyLB
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2005, 03:25:04 PM »

If your hero doesn't care, why does it matter?
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Vaxalon
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2005, 09:07:50 PM »

I'm assuming the hero DOES care.

You're in the claiming portion of the turn.  Players are A, B, C, and D.

You're D.  A and C are villains.  A goes first, claiming one side of the conflict, B claims a different one, C claims the other.    Since noone has taken any actions yet, either one could win it.

At this point, it would be really, really hard for D to win this conflict.  The best he could do, is try to make it tie, so he could grab a side in it in the next round.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
TonyLB
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2005, 03:42:37 AM »

I'm a little confused.  Is there a reason the hero cannot invest Debt, and schism off his own side (which he would then have greater game-mechanic authority over)?
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Vaxalon
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2005, 06:03:04 AM »

Sure, he can schism off his own side, if he has the debt available for it.  But he can't claim it at that point.  He's been shut out during the claiming phase.  He can weaken one side by splitting off dice from it, but unless he is lucky enough that the dice will allow him to cause the two sides to be tied, or has enough resources available (story tokens, inspiration) to actually WIN the conflict, he's still at a disadvantage.  Even if he DOES win that page, he still has to go into ANOTHER page to claim it... and can concievably get shut out again.

It just seems more fair to me, to allow folks to create a third side during the claiming phase.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
TonyLB
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2005, 07:16:26 AM »

I'm still not getting you.  What's unfair about it?  Don't the heroes have exactly the same opportunity to make a conflict with two heroic sides, and lock the villains out?

And from a strategic viewpoint, if the villains are occupied fighting each other, wouldn't it be the perfect time for a hero to be concentrating his effort somewhere else?
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Vaxalon
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2005, 07:37:33 AM »

Maybe it'll make more sense if it's in specific.  I'll try to make it as direct as possible.

Our characters are again A, B, C, and D.

The event, played in the first page, is "D's girlfriend is rescued from the bugblatter beast."  For whatever reason, A and C both think it would be really funny if D isn't the one who rescues her.  On the claiming phase, A claims one side and C claims the other.  As play comes around, both of them play on it, and both roll up each other's dice... so each die gets rolled three times before it gets to D.  Let's say neither of them put down any debt... after all, this is just a lark for them, tormenting D by playing "keep away" with his girlfriend.  Both dice are likely to wind up either 5 or 6 by the time they get to him.  He'll have chances to roll them down, but since he'll have (at maximum) only one "5" on his character sheet, he'll probably only be able to roll ONE of them down, and possibly neither.

When it comes around to D's action, he's at a strong disadvantage.  He can invest debt to split off one of the sides, but it remains likely that if he does, the other will win.  Even if this tactic succeeds, and he comes out on top, the side he has created will get claimed by C (who claims before him) in the following round, and he'll once again be at a disadvantage.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
TonyLB
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2005, 08:34:23 AM »

Uh... you're talking about three players consistently opposing D, yes?

Well then, yeah, he's screwed.  And it has nothing to do with the structure of these particular rules, and everything to do with the fact that he has three players united to kick him around.

My advice?  Take it like a man.  They're wasting their actions and accumulating debt on something that will net them just about zero inspirations or story tokens.  Gnash your teeth eloquently, to make them feel they've accomplished something, then go off and rack up a four or five Inspiration by winning a Conflict they're too busy to oppose you on.
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Vaxalon
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2005, 08:38:17 AM »

No, two players.  A and C, though they're not spending a lot of resources on it.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
TonyLB
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2005, 09:41:06 AM »

Whoops, I somehow thought that either B was opposing or B was the one jumping D's claim of his newly created side.

C can't claim D's side, as C is already (and potently) allied with the side that he claimed and rolled on the previous turn.

So, a quick spot-check that we're both understanding the situation the same way:

A and C both end up with 5s, on Blue and Red dice respectively.

D stakes two Love Debt on the Red side, splits the dice 2, 2, 1 and takes the 2s for his own, purple side.  The sides are now:  B: 5, R: 1, P: 2+2

D then rolls up one of the twos.  If he gets a three or higher, the Conflict doesn't resolve that Page.  If he fails it resolves for Blue.

If it doesn't resolve that Page then the only people who can lay claim to it next Page are B and D.

Is that our mutual understanding?  'cuz if we've disposed of the miscommunications then we can discuss whether D is unfairly disadvantaged.
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Vaxalon
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Posts: 1619


« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2005, 10:13:46 AM »

Yeah, that pretty much covers it.

B was there as a hypothetical hero or other (non villain) character, someone that keeps the balance at the table.
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"In our game the other night, Joshua's character came in as an improvised thing, but he was crap so he only contributed a d4!"
                                     --Vincent Baker
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