An Odd Game Mechanic

[Cynthia Celeste Miller]

As I finished up all the examples for Channel 4 in Cartoon Action Hour, my mind suddenly devised an idea for a die mechanic.  Since I've already been putting thought into what my next game will be, this just might be a good starting place.

So, I quickly typed it all up so that I wouldn't forget it.  After all, I've been up for far too many hours and I feel brain-fried.  This state of being lends itself well to forgetfulness.

I'm posting it here for you all to glance over and hopefully offer feedback on.  With any luck, my tiredness didn't show through too much, making it read like Greek.  LOL!




ATTRIBUTES
All characters have six Attributes;

Strength:  Raw physical power
Agility:  Dexterity and coordination
Grit: Stamina and hardiness
Brains:  Knowledge and perception
Willpower:  Mental strength
Charisma:  Charm and leadership

Each Attribute has a rating between 2 and 12.  The higher the rating, the better the character is at the Attribute in question.  

2:  Poor
3:  Fair
4:  Average
5:  Good
6:  Great
7:  Maximum Unaltered Human
8:  Enhanced
9:  Superhuman
10:  Megahuman
11:  Ultrahuman
12:  Cosmic


SKILLS
Characters may have certain Skills that reflect training, knowledge or talents.  Each Skill a character possesses is rated from 1 to 4.  The higher the rating, the better the character is at the Skill.

1:  Basic
2:  Advanced
3:  Expert
4:  Master

((Insert Skill list when appropriate))

ACTION CHECKS
Whenever a character attempts an action that isn't terribly simple, the GM may require an action check.  ;

First, roll a number of d10s equal to the rating of the most appropriate Attribute.

Look at each of the dice separately (i.e., don't add  them together).  Try to create a string of numerically sequential die results (for example a 3, 4 and 5).  This is called a chain.  The more numbers in the chain, the better the character does.  In most cases a chain of 2 will suffice, but harder tasks may require more.

Multiple Chains  
It's quite possible to have more than one chain in a single action check.  Only the chain with the most sequential numbers counts.  If more than one chain has an equal amount of sequential numbers (e.g., two chains with 3 sequential numbers each), only the chain with the highest numbers count.

Duplicate Sequential Numbers and Skills
Sometimes, a chain will consist of duplicates (called "extras") of the same number(s).  Extras are disregarded altogether, unless the character has an applicable Skill.

In this case, you can "keep" one extra of your choice per Skill rating, with each one counting as a sequential number.  So, if you roll a  6, 6, 7, 8, and 8 and you have an applicable Skill rating of 1, you can keep both 8's (but not both 6's).  This would give you a chain of 4, rather than 3.

Rolling 10's
If any of the dice roll 10 (regardless of whether or not they're part of a chain), you may roll an additional die per 10.  If any of these dice come up 10's, keep on rolling more dice!

Harder Tasks
As mentioned previously, some tasks will prove to be more difficult than others.  Harder tasks require more sequential numbers in the chain.

Basic Tasks:  2
Hard Tasks:  3
Very Hard Tasks:  4
Extremely Hard Tasks:  5
Nearly Impossible Tasks:  6

AN EXAMPLE OF AN ACTION CHECK:
Ryan's character is attempting to leap out of the way of falling debris.  His Agility is 6, so he rolls 6d10.  He gets 1, 3, 8, 8, 9 and 10.  With his 8, 9 and 10, he has a chain of 3.  But, he also rolled a 10, which allows Ryan to toss an additional die.  He gets a 7, bringing it up to a chain of 4!  Ryan also notes that his character has the "Leaping" Skill with a rating of 1.  This enables him to count his extra 8 as a part of the chain.  When all is said and done, Ryan has a chain of 5!!  The GM had figured this to be a Hard Task, which required at least a chain of 3.  Needless to say, the character was wildly successful!

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Cynthia,

I think I have to break this up into three separate aspects of design.

ONE
The first one is the skill/attribute model, which I find clunky. It strikes me that "ability" as a generic concept, as seen in Hero Wars or Castle Falkenstein, is sufficient.

TWO
The second one is the "chain" concept of reading dice results, which I think is the core of your post. My question is, what is really being accomplished aside from the novelty?

Given a varying handful of dice being thrown, there are several ways to read them:

a) perform a manipulation (e.g. total them as in Over the Edge)

b) take the highest or lowest or any other specific single value (as in Sorcerer, the Silhouette system, Ironclaw, Deadlands)

c) count the number equal to or over/under a particular target number (as in Vampire, Fading Suns)

d) combine any of the above (e.g. The Whispering Vault, in which you take the highest OR add up like-values as in Yahtzee)

It seems to me that your idea is a fairly high-handling-time version of (b), and I'm not sure what value is being added in comparison to the other methods listed in (b).

Let's look at that handling time issue, too. I roll dice - now I look across them for chains. I also look across them for extras and see if my skills can come into it. I also look across them for 10's and re-roll; I have to do this last because the original chains count, and once I do it, I have to do the first two steps over again. Seems to me like a lot of work.

THREE
The third one concerns the number of dials available in the system, which I think is quite a lot. We have number of dice (rating), skill level, and target number, all varying across characters and situations. That leads me to think that the same result can be arrived at via many different paths of character design, which has kind of a "blah" effect on play - lots of effort to arrive, essentially, at the same point. Also, the more dials, the more breakpoints appear, which is another way of saying potential Currency problems.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

Speaking as one who LOVES novel game mechanics I get a kick out of the idea, but I'd have to agree.  There doesn't initially seem to be much reason to use it over another simpler method.

However, it may have some appeal if it tied into the color of the game in some way.  For example if the game, had "strands of magic essence" or "Pern-esque Thread" or was a sci-fi game based on exploring the implications of "super string" theory or something like that, then the idea of forming these threads, or chains, or strands with the die rolling might be an interesting tie-in to the color.

[Mike Holmes]

Difficult to calculate odds. On a practical quick 3000 rolls at each level of attribute (boy is my rolling arm tired ;-) ), not re-rolling 10s, I get the following.

Code Select Expand


          Dice
Successes  2       3       4       5       6       7       8       9       10      11      12
      1   82.4%   56.8%   34.5%   18.1%    9.8%    5.5%    2.2%    1.0%    0.6%    0.4%    0.1%
      2   17.6%   39.2%   51.0%   54.8%   46.3%   37.3%   29.3%   23.1%   16.1%   11.8%    8.0%
      3            4.0%   13.2%   21.9%   29.4%   34.1%   35.6%   33.1%   29.8%   28.1%   23.3%
      4                    1.3%    4.6%   11.1%   15.5%   20.8%   23.0%   25.2%   26.1%   25.2%
      5                            0.6%    2.9%    5.6%    8.3%   12.0%   16.3%   16.5%   19.5%
      6                                    0.5%    1.7%    2.9%    5.0%    7.5%    9.3%   11.1%
      7                                            0.2%    0.8%    2.1%    2.9%    4.0%    6.6%
      8                                                    0.1%    0.6%    1.5%    2.9%    3.7%
      9                                                            0.1%    0.1%    0.8%    1.7%
     10                                                                    0.0%    0.2%    0.6%

For the open-ended tens you can estimate that the numbers will all be a tad higher, and, of course, it becomes possible to get totals higher than listed.

Sorry I don't have time to do a more in-depth analysis.

Mike

[xiombarg]

Would Cynthia (or Mike, since he did the quickie analysis) explain how this mechanic differs signifigantly from the rules of Godlike? (See the http://www.godlikerpg.com/quickplayrules.pdf" target=_blank>Quick Play Rules if you don't know what I'm talking about.) I mean, how different, statistically, is a "chain" from a "match"? Plus, the Godlike rules have the advantage of two areas of consideration (the number matched and the number of matches) which they map onto speed and greater success, tho I suppose you could do the same with the "chain"...

[Mike Holmes]

Would Cynthia (or Mike, since he did the quickie analysis) explain how this mechanic differs signifigantly from the rules of Godlike?

See for yourself.

Code Select Expand

     Dice
Succ. 2       3      4      5      6      7       8      9      10     11     12
  1 90.00%  72.73% 50.03% 30.43% 14.40%  5.10%   1.57%  0.47%  0.00%  0.00%  0.00%
  2 10.00%  26.20% 45.80% 60.30% 68.27% 70.40%  61.27% 52.57% 38.63% 29.13% 19.10%
  3          1.07% 4.00%   9.00% 15.73% 21.33%  32.13% 38.87% 48.57% 53.43% 56.03%
  4                0.17%   0.23%  1.57%  2.87%   4.77%  7.37% 10.80% 14.80% 20.33%
  5                        0.00%  0.03%  0.20%   0.20%  0.57%  1.70%  2.13%  3.87%
  6                               0.00%  0.07%   0.03%  0.10%  0.17%  0.47%  0.60%
  7                                      0.00%   0.00%  0.00%  0.07%  0.00%  0.00%
  8                                              0.00%  0.00%  0.00%  0.00%  0.00%
  9                                                     0.00%  0.00%  0.00%  0.00%
 10                                                            0.00%  0.00%  0.00%
 11                                                                   0.00%  0.00%
 12                                                                          0.00%

Again, this assumes no open-enders or anything. Just the number of matches I got on 3000 throws of each number of dice.

Mike

[xiombarg]

Right on, Mike. So, statistically, is it worth the difference to do "chains" rather than "matches"? My gut says "no", but I'm curious what other people think.

[Mike Holmes]

Well, I think the chain has a slightly wider and more interesting distribution. The matches have fifty pecent or higher chance that the most likely result will occur. This is much lower with the chains, especially at higher levels of dice (which we might expect to be the most interesting in Cartoon Action Hour). Does the higher handling time justify it? Well, probably not, especially considering that there are probably other ways to acheive the same curves.

OTOH, if there were more feedback based on the complex handling of the dice, that might well warrant using the system. For example, looking at the highest die in the chain for something (perhaps resolution order or something). The skill system is tied into the system, but adds handling time without taking advantage of the system. For example, one thing you could do is to note how many successes were due to skill (a potentially neat feature of the system), and make the result different because of that.

Stuff like that. Use the unique nature of the complex (relatively, compare to the twistedness of Isolation) dice system to generate more interesting feedback.

Mike

[Cynthia Celeste Miller]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for your input.  It was extremely helpful and has given me a lot of food for thought.  Skitchie and myself worked hard on revising the rules tonight.

Our primary goal was to simplify it a bit, thus decreasing the handling time.  We also wanted to make the highest number in the chain actually mean something.

Hopefully, this revised version works better than the first one.  Here goes.....


ATTRIBUTES
All characters have six Attributes;

Strength:  Raw physical power
Agility:  Dexterity and coordination
Grit:  Stamina and hardiness
Brains:  Knowledge and perception
Willpower:  Mental strength
Charisma:  Charm and leadership

Each Attribute has a rating between 2 and 12.  The higher the rating, the better the character is at the Attribute in question.  

2:  Poor
3:  Fair
4:  Average
5:  Good
6:  Great
7:  Maximum Unaltered Human
8:  Enhanced
9:  Superhuman
10:  Megahuman
11:  Ultrahuman
12:  Cosmic


SKILLS
Characters may have certain Skills that reflect training, knowledge or talents.  Each Skill a character possesses is rated from 1 to 4.  The higher the rating, the better the character is at the Skill.

1:  Basic
2:  Advanced
3:  Expert
4:  Master

((Insert Skill list when appropriate))

ACTION CHECKS
Whenever a character attempts an action that isn't terribly simple, the GM may require an action check.  ;

First, roll a number of d10s equal to the rating of the most appropriate Attribute.  If the character  has a relevant Skill, add a number of dice equal to it's rating as well.

Look at each of the dice separately (i.e., don't add  them together).  Try to create a string of numerically sequential die results (for example a 3, 4 and 5).  This is called a chain.  The more numbers in the chain, the better the character does.  In most cases a chain of 2 will suffice, but harder tasks may require more.

Multiple Chains  
It's quite possible to have more than one chain in a single action check.  Only the chain with the most sequential numbers counts.  If more than one chain has an equal amount of sequential numbers (e.g., two chains with 3 sequential numbers each), only the chain with the highest number counts.

Duplicate Sequential Numbers
Sometimes, a chain will consist of duplicates (called "extras") of the same number(s).  Extras are disregarded altogether.

Rolling 10's
If one or more dice come up 10, they automatically become part of the chain!  Each 10 doesn't represent a specific number, but is still considered a part of the chain.  

Harder Tasks
As mentioned previously, some tasks will prove to be more difficult than others.  Harder tasks require more sequential numbers in the chain.

Basic Tasks:  2
Hard Tasks:  3
Very Hard Tasks:  4
Extremely Hard Tasks:  5
Nearly Impossible Tasks:  6+

The Top Die
The top die is the highest roll in the chain.  For example, if your chain consists of 4, 5 and 6, your top die is 6.  The higher the top die is, the more benefit the character will generally receive.  The GM can use this to determine any number of things such as;

the amount of time it takes to perform the action.
the duration of the action (e.g., the character temporarily disables a security system.  But for how long?)

Also, when rolling to hit an opponent in combat, the top die will affect the amount of damage inflicted.


AN EXAMPLE OF AN ACTION CHECK:
Ryan's character is attempting to leap out of the way of falling debris.  His Agility is 6 and he has the Jumping Skill at 1, so he rolls 7d10.  He gets 1, 1, 3, 8, 8, 9 and 10.  With his 8, 9 and 10, he has a chain of 3.  But, he also rolled a 10, which automatically becomes part of the chain.  This elevates his result to a chain of 4!  The GM had figured this to be a Hard Task, which required at least a chain of 3.  Needless to say, the character was wildly successful!  Furthermore, due to the top die being a 10, the GM determines that the character dodged in enough time to allow him to attempt to save the nearby pedestrian as well.

[Valamir]

Thats much simpler.  I'd suggest another change as well.  Treat 10s as 0s.  Treat 0s as Wildcards.

In a roll with 4, 6, 8, 5, 0  You'd have a Chain of 4, 5, 6 Plus a Wild Card making it a 4 length chain with a high of 6.

In this way you avoid the 8, 9, 10 plus the 10 counts twice effect.  And you also avoid increasing the number of chains whose high is a 10.

[Cynthia Celeste Miller]

Very good idea.  Treating 10's as 10's would create more ambiguity than it's worth.  I'll definitely implement your suggestion into the rules.

Thank you.  :)

[xiombarg]

And if you're lucky and get lots of 10s, you should be able to get top results higher than 10 with the wildcard...

Frex: You roll 9, 0, 0, 0. That's a chain of 4 with a top die of 12 (9 10 11 12).

Of course, if you use that, you'll have to specify something like: "A wildcard must be paired with at least one non-wild die to make a chain, or if all wildcards are rolled, the chain must start with the value of [x]..." (Where x is whatever you think is good for game balance purposes... I want to say 9 or 10, since there should be some reward for rolling all wildcards IMHO...) This is to prevent someone from rolling all wilds and saying: "Okay, my chain starts at 100... Wow, that's a lot of combat damage!"

[TheMouse]

"And if you're lucky and get lots of 10s, you should be able to get top results higher than 10 with the wildcard... "

I disagree. The benifits of having a wildcard are enough without being able to go above 10. Having a wildcard should add to the length of the chain without adding to the top-number.

I think that if a roll has all 10's, thus all wild, the bottom number of the chain should be the number of dice rolled. Since it is less and less likely to roll all 10's the higher the number of rolled dice, having higher die pools should be rewarded. (ie. 3 dice all come up 10's, your chain is 3,4,5. 5 dice all come up 10's, your chain is 5,6,7,8,9.)

Rolling all 10's should be the only way that having the top-number of the chain go above 9 (if you are assuming that 10's are wild and don't have a number of their own).

Just some thoughts....



TheMouse

[Mike Holmes]

The only problem I see with this is that everybody can do the max damage, 10, even if they are the weakest character alive. They have a 2% chance to do so, which isn't all that bad. As soon as you add a die or two the odds of getting a ten goes up fairly proportionally, but yet never really becomes all that high for high numbers of dice rolled. At twelve dice rolled you still only have about an 18% chance to get a ten result. In other words, characters with high stats and skills are not all that much more likely to do high damage than characters that have poor stats. Without going too in depth, I'd guess that the expected value of results only increases by two points or so going from 2 dice to 12.

Ralph's system of wild-cards fixes this only marginally, as scores above ten would be fairly rare, and not really much higher when they were. For example, if I'm rolling ten dice my max potential is eighteen (a nine and nine tens, a longshot). Less than twice as much as a character with only two dice who's max is ten (a nine and a ten, two percent).

OTOH, this might be something that makes sense in the world of Cartoons.

Mike

[mallninja0088]

What do you think of incorporating this into my game...I have nothing!!!! LOL...I will understand if you say no.

LOL,
Brad

~NO ideas yet~