Dogs and advancement and its impact on play

[Matt Wilson]

Sadly, I can only ask about Dogs stuff from the outside, since I haven't got the chance to play it yet. Did I mention how sad that is?

But this is a sort of half-theory, half-play kind of question/topic.

What does the addition of new traits and increased stats do? How does it affect play of the game?

Can anyone who's played several sessions comment on that? V, what was your intention as designer guy? Is it similar to being able to swap out traits and change your issue in PTA? Is the impact on conflict bigger than that?

[lumpley]

I want to hear what Clinton has to say about this. Clinton, if you're willing?

-Vincent

[Eric Provost]

Well, I'm not Clinton, but our group has played about half a dozen sessions so far, so we've got perhaps a little insight.

The increase in power of the Dogs has been slight but constant.  I'm looking forward to logging enough sessions to report how the increase in power has an effect on conflicts, but that's a little ways off yet.
Perhaps after a full dozen sessions.  Perhaps more.

Unfortunately I can't compare anything with PTA, as I simply haven't gotten around to ordering my copy yet.  

I can see the characters all changing shape as a direct result of fallout traits, but I'm not sure what effect that will have on the rest of game play.  I think it's just to early.

So, after formulating these thougts and getting them down here, I suppose the final result is that I believe six sessions of Dogs is insufficinet to formulate where the new traits and increased stats will bring us.

But I promise to update you when we hit a dozen sessions and beyond.

-Eric

[lumpley]

Eric, cool. That doesn't surprise me. I think of the trait and stat changes in Dogs as like breathing - little expansions and little contractions that keep the character alive and growing.

So Matt - in fact I'd say it's smaller than that.

-Vincent

[Clinton R. Nixon]

The character advancement in Dogs is totally related to the storyline. In my experience, the Dogs start small and do what they can. Their first town or two, they have to make compromises as to how they can affect things.

By town three, they make a plan and execute - and it still might have repercussions they didn't see, but by gum, they did it.

As the players grow in their opinions about what their Dogs are about, so do the Dogs' ability to make that happen. It all just works.

As a side note, it did give me the opportunity as GM to throw more out there. By town four, I had mobs coming at the Dogs.

[Matt Snyder]

Cool! This is very similar to improvement in Nine Worlds. There, characters become more effective as they earn rewards. Yadda yadda, right? Same as so many other games with "advancement."

But it's not quite the same. That advancement is similar to other games, but it escalates conflicts over time. The grand effect, at least in Nine Worlds and possibly in Dogs, is that protagonists find themselves in messier conflicts with graver consequences. Advancement and longer-term escalation -- a rich combo.

[Ron Edwards]

*cough* Trollbabe too.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Wilson]

As a side note, it did give me the opportunity as GM to throw more out there. By town four, I had mobs coming at the Dogs.

Huh, so by four towns it was clear that players had more stuff on their sheets to help them win conflicts?

How'd it affect escalation? Did more new or improved traits show up at the just talkin' stage? Was it fairly spread out?

Here's a follow-up Q for GMs: How have you handled characters who are really good at just-talkin' conflicts? It might be something that really interests me personally, but I see the situation in play where the player has to decide - "crap, this talking isn't working, now what do I do?" - is the coolest goddamn thing ever. Matt, I see you're checking in - it reminds me of the "do I fold" dilemma in DD.

So if the character is really good at talking, what angle do you take instead?  How do you create a similar dilemma? Good golly, look at me ramble on. Maybe this is two posts, or maybe its own entire forum.

[neelk]

Here's a follow-up Q for GMs: How have you handled characters who are really good at just-talkin' conflicts? It might be something that really interests me personally, but I see the situation in play where the player has to decide - "crap, this talking isn't working, now what do I do?" - is the coolest goddamn thing ever. Matt, I see you're checking in - it reminds me of the "do I fold" dilemma in DD.

So if the character is really good at talking, what angle do you take instead?  How do you create a similar dilemma? Good golly, look at me ramble on. Maybe this is two posts, or maybe its own entire forum.

I worried about this at first, but it's dirt-simple in actual play: have the NPC escalate when they run out of dice against super-preacher-man (or, in my game, woman). The more desperate the NPC becomes, the harder, emotionally speaking, it is for the player to keep going. Escalate to physical action: the NPC runs away. Escalate to fists: the NPC swings a blind haymaker at the PC, shouting "Shut up! Shut up!" Escalate to guns: the NPC pulls out her gun and says "Damn you to hell! My papa is a good man!" before taking the shot. Even if the PC never needs to escalate even once, it's obvious that the PC is flaying the NPC's soul open with his or her words, and most players won't willingly shatter a person's spirit unless they are damn sure it's worth it.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Here's a follow-up Q for GMs: How have you handled characters who are really good at just-talkin' conflicts? It might be something that really interests me personally, but I see the situation in play where the player has to decide - "crap, this talking isn't working, now what do I do?" - is the coolest goddamn thing ever. Matt, I see you're checking in - it reminds me of the "do I fold" dilemma in DD.

If they're really good at jes' talkin', they're really good at it. If they're good at it to the exclusion of anything else, sooner or later, those dice are gonna suck and they'll have to start pullin' stuff out of a hat. That's when things get interesting.

Remember: fallout is fun!

So if the character is really good at talking, what angle do you take instead?  How do you create a similar dilemma?

You could have someone open up a conflict with shots and have the Dog talk him down. Escalation isn't linear. It's more of a checklist of ways to bring in Attributes.

[Lance D. Allen]

Even if the PC never needs to escalate even once, it's obvious that the PC is flaying the NPC's soul open with his or her words, and most players won't willingly shatter a person's spirit unless they are damn sure it's worth it.

This.. just wow. This line right here does it all for me, I think. I can so totally see this happening with my character.. Doing his damnedest to talk the conflict out to avoid having to hurt the NPC, but as finally the NPC is clickin' on empty chambers and collapses in a crying heap, Dove's going to have to ask himself if it wouldn't have been more merciful just to shoot.

[Bankuei]

Don't forget, sometimes broken souls will put the barrel to their own heads...

Chris