No Hit Points?

[indie guy]

Hi this is my first post here, and I am overjoyed that a place like this exists!

I'm almost done with my 100th neurotic attempt at writing (yeah, it may seem repetitive) a fantasy rpg, that I started a while back. And if I keep it up I might have this monster done soon. The basics are done, got some stream-lining to do before I venture into play testing. This might sound like it's all hack and slash, but because of the combat system sword-play might be something avoided until characters are high level.

What makes this game, I think, revolutionary is a combat system I'm calling "Lethal Combat". Basically, if someone swings a giant warhammer it's going to break bones, and it's not reflected by doing X points of damage which are subtracted from X amount of hit points.

So I've been watching movies like Conan and Gladiator over and over and trying interperate that style of combat into an rpg. I've also been researching tons of forensics, finding out estimated survival times of stab victims and so on. And I'm trying to make a system that is realistic, and fun at the same time.

With weapons cutting off heads or just plain stabbing, hit points are becoming obsolete in my game. Because a stab is going to have other effects than a slash from a sword. Although, I have to admit hit points do exist to an extent, but they function differently than traditional games that I know of. And they sit more in the background as an alternative which is synthesized into my Lethal system.

Parts of it are worked out on tables (kind of like M.E.R.P. critical tables - the Middle Earth game), and when tables aren't used each weapon itself has short rules of it's own. Most of combat is spent parrying, blocking, and dodging which may or may not turn out to be frusterating to players. I'm hoping the Lethal system will offer an oppertunity to develop interesting defensive tactics during game play until fatal blows are struck.

So, for the game theorists here at the Forge, I'm interested in your opinions and knowledge of other games that may have tried to break the "hit point barrier". To my knowledge it hasn't been done. And to be honest, hit points have never broken a sense of disbelief for me, can't stand them in pen & pencil rpgs and can't stand them in video games.

*On a different note, the articles here are great! And eventhough they did make me a little more crazy because they covered problems I was dealing with on my own. Like the random attribute determination, covered in the "Heart-Breaker" article, I really wished I discovered it earlier ... my game uses 3D4+5 lol! I didn't see that in the list, but someone did do 2D6+4. It absolutely kills me! Jokes aside, I have been dieing to talk about this stuff with people who know about rpg's. Thanks again for this great resource.

-Paul

[Vaxalon]

It has been done.  Many many times.

Amber Diceless
Werewolf, Vampire, Mage, Wraith, Changeling
Castle Falkenstein
Continuum, Narcissist
Risus

And that's just off the top of my head.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Paul,

The game you may want to look at to see an approach very similar to what you want is The Riddle of Steel. There's a free quick-start on their website that should describe the basic system, although the full system is much more complex.

What you want can be done well: I think The Riddle of Steel did it pretty well, but I'd love to hear your take on it.

[Vaxalon]

It has been done.  Many many times.

I apologize for the brusque tone in this post.  This should teach me to post before I've had my coffee.

[Trevis Martin]

Hey Paul, welcome.

I have to second Riddle as a good example of what you describe.  You can get killed by a dagger in that game.  Health points still exist but they are really secondary to see if you can hold up against the blood loss of multiple wounds.  The specific wound dealt may or may not kill you right there.

As for resources, yeah the Forge is pretty helpful.  There's a lot cool stuff being discussed on blogs too.  My favorite one being Vincent "lumpley" Baker's blog at http://lumpley.com

Hey Fred, compared with Riddle and with what Paul says he wants to do WoD and CF are bog-standard generic wound level/hit point systems.

best

Trevis

[Resonantg]

Cyberpunk 2013 uses a wound system, not HP.  Not the 2020 version though, they went to an HP system that was not as good.  See if you can find the box set of the original cyberpunk and check out the Friday Night Firefight rules.  They're excellent IMHO.

Also, I'm developing a system with "Direct to Trait" damage.  No HP at all.  Once your Trait level reaches -WIL, -MRL or -WIL, you have a catastrophic failure of that trait that can leave you dead, unconscious, a vegetable, paraplegic or worse.  Yeah... even worse is possible in Orion's Arm. ;c)  So far, alpha playtests of this damage system are incredibly encouraging, and hopefully some day soon, I'll be posting here asking for beta testers. :c)

So you can check out what we're doing on my website at the link at the bottom for ideas.  Hope they help. ;c)

[Jake Richmond]

I'm playing around for an HP'less system for a game I'm working on as well.  I've seen this done well before (Cyberpunk did it well, as noted), but I'm trying to figure out something a little different. In my game you play young children from our world trapped in a fantasy world, so I'm trying to reflect that. Kids who cannot sustain alot of damage in a world where everything is nasty and violent. Combats not the main thing in the game (exploration and fun adventures is what its all about), but the threat of voilence is always something that hangs in the background.

-jake

[indie guy]

This is all this great advice, you've all given me alot to research to do, and are giving me a perspective on where my concept stands.

And no offense taken Vaxalon, first impressions are also great advice and I agree with what you said ... the narrative approach is probably the best solution to non-hit point based games, and it is something I overlooked. When I read what you wrote, I thought to myself duh!!! I'm an idiot! I own Vampire, Mage and Wraith ... it's just been years since I played them and I forgot, lol.

And what I mean by narrative is, games that don't let themselves get bogged down with a giant systems, but are loosely designed allowing for stroy to be rule of rules. (I bet there is already a definition provided in the articles, which I need to familiarize myself with more, ecspecially if I decide to pursue game design further.)

Anyway, I'm sold on Riddle of Steel just by the name ... that one is new to me, I'm going to check that one out first. Thanks again everyone!

*I also have more stuff to add, although I haven't researched it thourghly yet. The d20 system people mentioned the new editions of the Star Wars game has another approach to hit points, which uses bruise and wound points. And I'd also like to mention the video games Bushido Blade and Tenchu, which is also another approach to non hit point use. It's based on a players hand and eye coordination which can't be easily translated into a table-top game.

But, I don't want to get into detail about video games, because programming is a very different approach to game design. But it is somthing I keep in mind, because I think rpgs have made a giant impact on video games. But they are different, such as when Vampire was translated into the video game Bloodlines, they ended up resorting to a hit point (blood points) based type game. (Although, it's a fun game.)  

I'm going to go back into my cave, and lurk some more on the forge.

-Paul

[indie guy]

Well, you asked for my opinion of Riddle of Steel and ... I like that game alot and I'm considering buying it, not just to study it but to play it. This is why:

(This post might sound more like game theory, but I wanted to end the string I started with a conclusion.)

I've done some research on these games, but I stoppped focusing on how non hit point systems work becuase I started to discover that isn't what is at the core of a good combat system. And also after discovering Pheonix Command, it taught me that a combat system who's goal is realism isn't exactly a realistic goal.

I've tried to break down as many combat systems as I could find, like GURPS ,Shadowrun, White Wolf Games and the dinosaur systems like D&D and Palladium. And I found Friday Night Firefight, and broke down the quickstart Riddle of Steel combat.

I discovered 3 universals, excluding Riddle of Steel which I found to be outstanding in a way I havn't seen reviewed. And it's not just because combat is the theme of the game.

All combat systems have these qualities (although they may work differently mechanicly).

1. An Attack Roll. A way to measure if a strike hits or not, and a resolution.

2. Sneak Attacks. Even in systems that do not use initiative, attackers are rewarded for getting the drop on the target.

3. Locked Combat. For some unknown reason characters decide to take turns exchanging blows. (I beleive this is a game mechanics error, because of the tendency to use a turned based approach.)

Riddle of Steel stands out because it uses simultaneous exchanges of blows. And once they are exchanged other factors in the system give reason to keep combat locked, such as taunting and melee range which creates an atmosphere of "it's is not exactly the best option to run." In short, characters are given reason in the system to confront and deal with each other.

And there you have it. I have a greater perspective now, that I feel I owe to the Forge, and my whole concept of my homebrewed game has changed. It's time for a massive overhaul of my game, but it's for the better!

[Andrew Cooper]

Don't forget to check out The Shadow of Yesterday and FATE.  Both those games do away with hit points and they work quite nicely.  Both can be downloaded in PDF form for free too, which makes them even better.

[xenopulse]

Welcome to the Forge, Paul.

I really liked the lethality of KULT when I first got it; that's yet another way of not using hit points (basically, each weapon has a D20 range for causing scratches, light wounds, severe wounds, or instant death).

So, does your system have a mechanic that allows player characters to survive longer than others? A very lethal system can be fun, but it can also cut down the narrative when it constantly wipes out PCs :)

[Paganini]

No one has mentioned Burning Wheel. It's like TROS, only... better. Sorta.

[sayter]

"you can get killed by a dagger in that game"


HEY! I'll have you know, daggers were and ARE very deadly weapons. A place I studied at a few years back caleld AEMMA (Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts) had an entire section of learning dedicated to the dagger.

Never discount their deadliness. They can puncture platemail quite easily (provided they possess the correct sort of hilt/guard configuration) and can sever a hand with minimal effort :)

But ahem...i digress.

Give the no hitpoints thing a go....its a not so difficult thing to work out, but keeping it BALANCED is the main problem. No one wants their PC to die in their first skirmish, period. Make sure if you dont use hitpoints you ahve some sort of countermeasure (a soak pool, for instance a-la white wolf)or a cyberpunk-esque system. Not a clone of course, but something so that Conan bad-boy doesnt get killed by a pigmy with a short knife.

[Vaxalon]

This is a classic playstyle conflict.

Sim: "Fights are deadly.  People die."
Nar: "Fights are exciting, but if an important charcater dies, it'll derail his story."
Gam: "Fights are fun to play out, but it's a drag if a carefully constructed warrior dies because of a bad roll."

[Michael S. Miller]

Hi, Paul.

You might find the thread Survey of Damage Systems insightful. It was my attempt to dissect how damage works across the dozens of game systems on my shelf.