Element - CCG

[mangaocid]

Ok, so I mentioned making a game called "Element". This game uses pieces of the "duelist system", creating an extended play version.(See the "Supers" thread for more information).

Instead of a character and 5 resources, you have a deck of up to 20 cards. Now, as opposed to playing each card as a resource, you can choose to hold the card in hand and play it as a resource later. There are also other opportunities in that you don't HAVE to play the card face up. If you hold it in hand tho, you pay a "casting cost" to place it face down.

The idea behind the game is the character is a mage of the element of your choice(fire, water, earth, air). The cards you use must be of that element. Spells you play are effected by the element you face(ie, water softens fire, wind feeds it).  This adds a bit of strategy in itself. Plus, in this version, there will be ways to shift resources out of play, and to replace ones you don't need or want to use anymore.

Future sets will see new mages(void, night, day, whatever) and possibly creatures of the elements. Anybody got ideas? Feedback? I'm open....considering this game is in development, it can use some attention I'm sure. Any help will be much appreciated.

[Veritas Games]

Spells you play are effected by the element you face(ie, water softens fire, wind feeds it).  This adds a bit of strategy in itself.

If _all_ the cards you use have to be of one element, then this is not adding strategy, it is adding randomness.  I end up matching up perfectly against you or poorly simply by which elements we pick.

I didn't understand the part about casting cost.  If you play it, it ends up in play and there's no casting cost?  But if you leave it in hand, then there's a casting cost?  Why would you not always play everything immediately?

As a general rule, for minimal tactical options you shouldn't penalize the player for playing with brains.  Penalize him only if he takes an option which is in some way quite extraordinary.

Nate said this was similar to Supers in some measure (or so I thought).  Does this have nothing in common with the other game at all?

You haven't provided enough information to go off of, I'm afraid.  More info is needed to make some assessments of your game.

My best guess is that the Pocket Games rules I've been developing (based, in part, on Nate's original skeleton for Supers) should work well with this game.  Each mage can get two Cartouches:

A) His own image (for personal spells) that only he can cast
B) His element of choice

In addition he can play generic spells that have no associated element.

If you want some kind of simulated drain on the mages psychic reserves then I can add another rule to the core rules.  We can make it a standard rule.  Maybe a shape in the lower right-hand corner with a resource number in there representing the number of resource points you need to return a card to an un-Drained status.  We could call it a Restoration cost -- the cost to un-Drain a card.  Something like that would allow you to have the following type of card:

Suffocate (Wind)
1: Do 1 Wind damage [Range Icon] to one character without a [Wind] Cartouche; or
[Drain this card Icon]: Drain one card in play without a [Wind] Cartouche.
[Restoration Icon with a 3 inside it]

The effect -- you can dink somebody all game with this card, but if you want to zap a card then you drain this.  Now you can't use it for the rest of the game unless you spend 3 resource points to un-Drain it.  Then you have to reveal it.

Note that this is fairly different than just putting a cost of "3" on the Drain a card power, because you can use this power even when you have no un-exerted Resources.

That's a sort of novel mechanic that is readily portable to many games.

[mangaocid]

A) His own image (for personal spells) that only he can cast
B) His element of choice

Alrighty. I see what you mean lee. What do you think about having the second cartouche be a Complimentary element. It has to be an element that works best with that element, say fire with air. That will also allow creation of dual element cards(wildfire, tidal wave, etc)

Like I may have said before, this game is in early dev stages right now, and I believe you to be correct in that the rules you have created could greatly apply here. I'm definitely all ears on this one, because of how much more complicated it can become and how much more strategy I wish to see in this game.

It's magic meets "Pocket games" really. You ARE the mage and you call on spells to keep you alive and in the fight. It gives players a little more to relate to in the game, since you only have one character to fight with, but a myriad of spells and possibilities.

The floor is open.

[Veritas Games]

You and Nate came up with was the notion of a beer and pretzels CCG with just a few cards.  That is brilliant.  Hands down a cool idea.  But I doubt you and I would design the same thing.  And so I don't know that we are going to get far discussing design.

I haven't playtested my design, but I jettisoned Nate's draft of Supers from my hard drive and came up with my own game that has a similar purpose, but often different implementation.  I kept trying to convince you guys to change your game to include my designs, and instead just made my own design.  That seemed simpler.

Of course things are similar in both games because we drew from similar sources (he borrowed, it seems, from Magic, but I borrowed instead from my own game Powerstorm and from the Vs. System).

Feel free to look at:

http://www.veritasgames.net/downloads/quick_fight_rules.pdf

http://www.veritasgames.net/downloads/dungeon_fight_a.pdf

There are two links for you.  My legal stuff is in the rules document.

I can't promise that those cards are playtested AT ALL.  I built the game assuming multi-player play.  I think this variety of game is too simple for deep tactics in one-on-one play.  The warrior in my game is simple.  The others have moderately complex card interactions that can be created if you know what you are doing.

Why discuss when you can see a suggested implementation?

I have 5 characters thus far.  I'm designing dungeon monsters next.

Feel free to borrow ideas from my game.  If you you use any verbatim text, just give a line of credit.  If you want to go with the entire rules system for your games, drop me an email veritasgames AT aol DOT com.

[Veritas Games]

Alrighty. I see what you mean lee. What do you think about having the second cartouche be a Complimentary element. It has to be an element that works best with that element, say fire with air. That will also allow creation of dual element cards(wildfire, tidal wave, etc)

Were I designing the game I would do the following:

There would be three kinds of spell access:
* Personal (only 1 guy can use it)
* Major (can access powerful stuff)
* Minor (can access only weaker stuff)

On the personal cards put only the Personal Cartouche.  On the Major cards put only the Major Cartouche.  On the Minor card (and this won't make sense at first) put BOTH the Major and Minor Cartouches.

If a mage can access both Major and Minor then give him JUST the Major Cartouche (since it automatically appears on the minor cards too).  If he has just minor access give him just the minor icon.  If you don't want to use different art, make a minor access the same picture but with a dashed circle around the image instead of an unbroken circle.

So, a guy might have:

Personal Cartouche
Major Fire
Minor Wind

and another guy might have

Personal Cartouche
Minor Fire
Major Wind

They'll have some overlapping cards, but will largely be distinct.

See my Dungeon Fight cards for a sample of this.  Look to the weapons.  Simple weapons have a flail icon and a dagger icon.  Martial weapons have a flail icon only.  All characters have access to simple weapons, but only the warrior can access all martial weapons.  Note that the Bow is a personal card for the assassin, and he can use that in spite of not using any other big weapons.

Same thing for armor and shields.  Heavy armor has a picture of a breastplate.  Shields and light armor have that picture, but also a picture of a shield.

The assassin gets shield and light armor (so he gets a shield cartouche).  The warrior gets all weapons and armor so he gets only the breastplate (which ALSO appears on light armor and shields).

I have "usability" as part of one of my other game designs, and I've seen symbols used effectively in Jyhad and other CCGs.  My Cartouche system is designed in that vein.

You and Nate think too much "inside the box" on this stuff, DJ.  You are thinking about a game with a handful of characters that never grows.  I like extensible mechanics that easily grow for having lots of characters which re-use old cards and have some of their own.

My Quick Fight system could easily develop into totally different games simply by changing a few variables on the character cards.  Extensible.  Write it in the rulebook without a method of extensibility, and it suddenly becomes fixed and limits your design space.

Think about doing design where you have hundreds of mages.  Then if you don't use the extra design space that's fine.  If you don't design this way, you'll design yourself into a box.

Work on designing rules for your Pocket Games with a single rulebook that's really flexible.

If you look at some of the cards for the Wizard and the Sorceress you'll see just how radical these cards can be.  They can be really unusual.

The other thing -- most cards (except really weak ones) should cost something to use.  Part of what makes tactical play tactical is choices about resource management.  If everything is free then you just activate all your non-attack effects and your biggest attack effect.  That's lame.  When you have to make resource allocation decisions, however, then there's the threat of making the wrong decision.

Don't get me wrong, a game with less than 10 cards only has so much in the way of tactics.  That's why I aimed my design at multi-player play.  Just let your mind wander.  Nate, at least, is in the "added complexity is bad" box.  Feel free to wander out in the open a while -- you can always go back to that box later.

[mangaocid]

I'll post a full response later, but know this...Element is MEANT to be more than what we did with Supers. Element is very easily NOT the supers. and as such, my goal is to bring that complexity and skill to the game. So don't feel I shut you down completely. Element is geared towards what you were suggesting, Supers was not.

With that said...let's rock and I'll read your rules and such and let you know what's up.

[Veritas Games]

Sorry, maybe this discussion wasn't shut down.  I felt the supers one was, and I thought Nate said you had at least a substantially similar core concept.  Every person I talked to hated having no control over what was played, what was revealed, and how it was revealed.

That made me move toward making my own "small pack" game.  Feel free to borrow text from it if you want.  I support you and Nate, DJ, so if I can be of use, that's cool by me.

BTW -- I normally design more complex stuff.  This is the simplest game I've designed.  It's 8 pages long, which when printed in 6 point font (in the 4 pages per page setting) prints to 1 page, front and back.  That's my target rules length.  For a pocket game, that should be yours as well.

[mangaocid]

Alrighty, read the rules for "quick fight". I like the idea of the icons to identify cards to be used by characters, but what real point is there to the icon of the character themselves?

I don't plan on making cards character specific, so that one I can leave out, but I like the major and minor idea....major being the element of the mage type, minor being a complimentary.

Each turn, play one resource card a la VS(face down). You may after that step, then choose a card if you like to flip face up, paying it's cost if necessary(larger cards that trigger upon flipping need that).

Here are the phases for Element

1)Recharge Phase - All cards drained by you on your last turn are recharged during this phase only, unless cards otherwise state.

2)Resource Phase - Draw a card and place a resource face down into play.

3)Ready Phase - Play an non attack spells and abilities during this phase to prepare for combat.

4)Combat Phase - Make a single attack, either basic or using a spell or ability from your hand or resources.

5)Ready Phase 2 - see ready phase

6)End Phase - Life totals are checked at this point, Anyone with life below or equal to 0 is KO'd from the game. If there are no opponents left, you win. If all players are below zero, the player with the most life points closest to zero wins. Next player's turn

Another thing that I do like, is the exchange ability. But, I'd like to use the idea as more unplannable. Say, you don't like the card cuz you can't use it....it can go to the bottom of your deck and be replaced immediately by the top card of the deck(you may look before placing it face down, but not before placing the old resource at the bottom of the deck).

In Element, to drain means to "tap" a card as a payment, or for the spells effect, etc.

Also, an ability I plan to add to make it more interesting, the ability to play cards from your hand a la magic or vs. These cards then go to the discard pile and are no longer in play.

As far as other characters to come, not just mages, but elementals, dragons, fairies, etc....this will all expand on the ideas behind the game...and more elements themselves shall appear, based on a multitude of cultural beliefs.

The floor is open

[Veritas Games]

I don't plan on making cards character specific, so that one I can leave out

De facto, if you have an icon (magic type, etc.) that nobody else can use, then it'll fill the role of a personal cartouche.  If you don't have personal cards, then there's no need for them.

Supers definitely could use them.

I think the option for personal cards (or for the de facto similar option of each character having a card pool only he can play) is really important.  It lets you fix post-production play balance problems.

Another thing that I do like, is the exchange ability. But, I'd like to use the idea as more unplannable.

The whole point of it is to be able to cycle through your deck after generating a minor power, or to cycle past an unusable or undesirable card.  So the ability to control it is somewhat important.  I wouldn't allow for it every turn in a game with a 5-6 card deck. Maybe in a deck with 20-30 cards that might not be horrible.

Keep in mind that I designed Quick Fight to be an extensible system.  All that's required to build a game where cards are play once and discard them is to add a Trash Can icon.  All that's required to allow people to choose to put the top card on the bottom and take a different card is to put an Exchange icon on many cards -- it'll produce the desired effect in a slightly different fashion.

That keeps standardized rules but allows for games with different mechanics.

Say, you don't like the card cuz you can't use it....it can go to the bottom of your deck and be replaced immediately by the top card of the deck(you may look before placing it face down, but not before placing the old resource at the bottom of the deck).

You want to limit this to certain cards or in a small pack deck people will always have the card they need.  Less of a problem in a 20-30 card deck.

In a small pack game then people might as well be playing with all the cards in hand if you can cycle every card.  In designing my sample cards, the ability to perfectly organize your cards would reduce some choice making down to an obvious ordering of effects.

Also, an ability I plan to add to make it more interesting, the ability to play cards from your hand a la magic or vs. These cards then go to the discard pile and are no longer in play.

I'd pick consistent mechanic and stick with it.  Play cards from hand or play them from a draw pile.  Don't do both.  The standard CCG mechanic could work for your game -- you draw everything to hand, and then you can either play something directly from hand or play it as a resource.  Just don't have some cards flipping off the top of the deck and others being played from hand.

[Veritas Games]

6)End Phase - Life totals are checked at this point, Anyone with life below or equal to 0 is KO'd from the game. If there are no opponents left, you win. If all players are below zero, the player with the most life points closest to zero wins. Next player's turn

I should nominally add an End of Turn phase.  I have an implied phase when this occurs in the rules (at the end of the turn), but I didn't label it as an official phase.  It'd be cleaner as a phase.

Almost every CCG has an end of round phase.  I was asleep at the wheel.  Thanks for the heads up.

[mangaocid]

you draw everything to hand, and then you can either play something directly from hand or play it as a resource. Just don't have some cards flipping off the top of the deck and others being played from hand.

That was my plan, just like VS, draw the cards to hand and play a single card each turn as a resource...this then allows you to keep cards in hand as back up, since this game won't just focus on beatdown, it will have a lot of prevent the opponent's attack going on also.

The whole point of it is to be able to cycle through your deck after generating a minor power, or to cycle past an unusable or undesirable card. So the ability to control it is somewhat important. I wouldn't allow for it every turn in a game with a 5-6 card deck. Maybe in a deck with 20-30 cards that might not be horrible.

What I meant was that it won't only effect the exchangeable cards. Not EVERY card will be able to do so as you recommend, but the ones with exchangeability will use that mechanic.

Also, checked out expandability of the game itself, can easily have dragon expansions, warriors, creatures, elementals, etc. Each having their basic major ability and one minor ability...creatures being the only ones to not use an element(some can).

the floor is open

[Veritas Games]

At this point, if you've got cards in hand you haven't talked about them.  You haven't included rules for drawing an open hand, maximum hand size, deck size, etc.  So I don't know how this game plays out.

[mangaocid]

I apologize for missing that, but at the same time, I did say that this was developmental.

I plan on having the player draw 5 for open hand, and one per turn...max of 5 in hand. Deck of 30 cards, possibly more depending on playtesting.

I don't have the cards layed out yet...still working them out.

[Veritas Games]

I apologize for missing that, but at the same time, I did say that this was developmental.

I plan on having the player draw 5 for open hand, and one per turn...max of 5 in hand. Deck of 30 cards, possibly more depending on playtesting.

I don't have the cards layed out yet...still working them out.

Maximum number of resource cards in play?

[mangaocid]

I'm not entirely decided on max resources....What would be your recommendation sir?

I'm thinking around 6....but I don't know for sure.