"Gandalf Did It"

[Vaxalon]

I dont see any reason why a mage cant be as good with a sword as a warrior. Gandalf did it, and countless other heroes in fantasy settings have.

I don't think Gandalf is a particularly good model for PC's.  His role in the books (indeed, in the movies, too) is primarily to push the main characters (Frodo and Aragorn) and their associated hangers-on into their places.  If LOTR were a roleplaying campaign, Gandalf would be an NPC.  When his protection is becoming overbearing to the story, he vanishes; when things need a kick in the pants again, he shows up.

He's a walking, talking, spellcasting, swordswinging McGuffin.

[Alan]

I think "Gandalf would have to be an NPC" assumes some kind of concern with fair or balanced distribution of the PCs ability to perform tasks.  This could be completely overcome with a conflict resolution system in stead of task resolution.  For example, a modification of Trollbabe could easily portray a sword-swinging wizard.  In fact, TB with some modifications, could probably create adventures like those Gandalf participated in while he was separated from the Fellowship, up to and including his transcendance to white.

[Callan S.]

You need justification for system design choices now? Justification for having sword weilding wizards?

[Vaxalon]

I think "Gandalf would have to be an NPC" assumes some kind of concern with fair or balanced distribution of the PCs ability to perform tasks.

No it doesn't.  My post doesn't say anything about distribution of ability.  It rests entirely on the character's purpose.  Gandalf's purpose is to move things along when they're stagnant and disappear when they're not... which is pretty much the opposite of a PC's purpose.

[Joshua Patterson]

Let's not forget that Gandalf is a member of the Istari (basically an angel), and is wielding one of the three elvish rings of power given to him by Cirdan.  Not your typical character...

/Tolkien nerd

[LandonSuffered]

i]Hobbit<LOTR<not Gandalf that drives the story; pretty much it is the Ring and its effect on people that does this.  Gandalf shows up in the Shire with news on the Ring...after <Bang<excellent example of why wizards should be able to use swords.  Since watching LOTR, my non-gamer wife thinks it extremely silly when ANY LOTR<not Gandalf that drives the story; pretty much it is the Ring and its effect on people that does this.  Gandalf shows up in the Shire with news on the Ring...after <Bang<excellent example of why wizards should be able to use swords.  Since watching LOTR, my non-gamer wife thinks it extremely silly when ANY

[Silmenume]

Hey Vaxalon,

I dont see any reason why a mage cant be as good with a sword as a warrior. Gandalf did it, and countless other heroes in fantasy settings have.McGuffin.

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Aure Entuluva - Day shall come again.

Jay

[Vaxalon]

Gandalf shows up in the Shire with news on the Ring...after <Bang<

Gandalf's "side adventure" can't be used as an example of Gandalf-as-protagonist because it's not something we see "played out" but something he describes as having already happened.  It's exposition, not exploration.  In the book, the same is true of the scene where Saruman reveals his betrayal to Gandalf.

Gandalf's "failures" as you term them are continuing examples of Gandalf not being there when he would get in the way of the main characters.

[Alan]

Vaxalon,

You've pointed out Gandalf was a fictional character with a specific story function, not a roleplaying character.  How does that have any bearing on why players should or should not be able to play a character _like_ him in a roleplaying game?  If for example, the player is happy to surrender the character's special fictional roles as Istar and archetypal guardian, but wants a PC that wields both magic and sword, what then?

[Vaxalon]

That's not a complete summary of my point.  My point is that if LOTR had been a roleplaying campaign rather than a book or movie Gandalf would have been a GM-controlled character rather than a player-character; his function in the "game" was to fade out when the climactic moments happened.

As a result, his abilities were determined by a different set of priorities than a PC's would be.

You and I may have different ideas of what those priorities would be, but do you not agree that the abilities of protagonists and supporting characters (PC's and NPC's) must needs be generated according to different sets of priorities?

[Clinton R. Nixon]

If for example, the player is happy to surrender the character's special fictional roles as Istar and archetypal guardian, but wants a PC that wields both magic and sword, what then?

Alan,

You already know the answer to this question: play Trollbabe.

Seriously, this discussion is making me lose brain cells. As is, it's insanely scattered and is veering into "wizards should be able to use swords!" territory, which I could have sworn we got out of our systems over Doritos in a basement when we were 15.

There are a few interesting things in this thread. Let's focus on them:

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Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games

[Larry L.]

Thank you for trying to steer this thread into vaguely germane territory, Clinton. Good lord...

[Vaxalon]

[Ron Edwards]

Courtesy moderation time.

Fred, you are agreeing with Clinton, not disagreeing with him. Your original thread topic was horseshit. Clinton found the still-viable nutrients in the pile and has nurtured them. You have now, with your latest post in response to his, revised your topic into something meaningful.

Try to say "thanks" when someone does you a favor like that.

Don't reply to me in any fashion. Just carry on with this (now) good thread.

Best,
Ron

[ADGBoss]

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AzDPBoss
www.azuredragon.com