[FH8] Playtest PDF online

[Eric Provost]

You can find it here.

While I'll enjoy and appreciate any kind of feedback there are a couple specific things I'd like to hear back from anyone who reads it over. 

As you read the text do you have any difficulty understanding the intent of the rule or rules being presented?  I'd like to think I have a strong reason for every rule presented so far. 

I don't think I included anything just out of habit without strong consideration as to if that rule or system should be included in FH8.  So, if you see something in the text that makes you wonder if it should be there at all I'd like to hear about it.

As you read the text can you imagine the game that would spring forth from these rules?  I often find that I'm turned off to a game as I read it because I just can't imagine what's supposed to be going on in it.  I really don't want that to be an issue with FH8.

In fact, is there any point where you would wonder "What am I supposed to do here?"

FYI
If you're interested in my first thread on FH8 you can find it here.
If you're interested in what type of game FH8 is in Forge-speak (before reading the PDF) follow the link in my Sig.
Credit where credit is due;  I ripped off tons of good stuff from DitV and Trollbabe as I started work on FH8.  The influences are still quite apparent.

-Eric

[Jack Aidley]

Please, please re-format the .pdf without the SMALL-CAPS and, preferably, in a serif font. The opening text interested me, but I'm just not going to read that much text formatted that way without a very good reason - it's too hard on the eyes.

[Eric Provost]

Thanks Jack.  I'm on it.  I blame the wifey.  She said that it looked good.   

Fix-ed.

-Eric

[Ron Edwards]

Hey, I'm liking this a lot so far.

One too-slow-brain question: regarding Hero/Villain, am I reading correctly in that you have one Hero Trait and one Villain trait?

Do they need to be named or defined in any way? (I'm thinking not)

If the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively, then I'm all good. If the answers are different from that, then I'm all confused and will have more questions.

Best,
Ron

[Eric Provost]

Ha.  You got it Ron.  Yes there are two traits and no you don't need to define them.  But thanks for asking.  I could probably make that more clear in the text.  I kept writting Hero/Villain (or HV scale) while I was making my notes because I always knew in my head what it was.

As an aside, I've gotta say; Ya made me nervous, Ron.  When I saw that you'd posted to my thread I figured there were two possible reasons for you to post to a thread like this one.  Either you found the game interesting or you were about to go Moderator on my ass for some etiquette infraction. 

And I couldn't imagine that you'd be interested in FH8...  :D

-Eric

[xenopulse]

I concur with Ron, in that I really like the game thus far (but you knew that I have an interest in it from previous threads on it :).

My questions:

1) Re pain. The table gives three different pain indicators (low, medium, high), and then mild, severe or extreme consequences based on a numerical amount of pain. So... how does low/medium/high pain translate to a number?

2) Do I understand this right that the only way to earn tokens is through being a Setting Director?

3) Re bidding with currency. So, one side puts forward one coin. The other side puts forward two coins. Now side one needs three coins.
a) Is that three additional coins, or just raising their pile to three?
b) Does only the winner lose currency?

I apologize in advance if I missed the answers to these on my read-through.

[Eric Provost]

Thanks for the questions Christian.

1)  Ha!  I forgot to bring that forward when I worked out the new versions of the charts.  Silly me, I'll have to scribble that in.  Low Pain = 1 point.  Medium Pain = 3 points.  High Pain = 5 points. 

2)  Yes, the only way for the Character Players to earn Currency is through the position of Setting Director.  (I assumed you meant Coins, not Tokens, which I think I only use 'tokens' for Conflict Resolution)

3)  Okies.  I knew that the write-up for that sucked, but I only got it from my brain into the compy a day or two before I brought it all to PagePlus.  Imagine, if you will, an Auction.  What you're buying is the right to get what you want at that moment.  You start the bidding at one Coin.  The oppsoing side has to beat your bid.  Then, you get the opportunity to beat their bid.  The winner of the Auction pays their coins and gets their way.  The looser of the Auction didn't get their way but still has coins for fucking with the other players later on.  Did that make sense?  I really need to work on clarifying that bit.

-Eric

[xenopulse]

Sure, that works, and that's how I thought it would...

I like that you have to earn coins not through character achievements, but through player creativity.

And I'm really not sure I'd still consider this a fantasy heartbreaker. It goes far beyond putting a few new ideas into an old casing.

Maybe it's time for a name change =)

[Eric Provost]

Ha!  Yeah.  A name change.  I've been thinking of that a lot.  I think I really want to give the feeling of Hero Vs. Villain in it.  See, while there's only the one mechanism for the HV conflicts and discussion right now, I've got it in my head that I can spread the HV stuff to PI PrepWork and to Creating Setting. 

But, as for it not being a Fantasy Heartbreaker...

Well, technically all I've attacked on my own is the issue of intentionally creating setting and color.  The conflict system is pretty well torn from DitV and the episode prep work is very much taken from the Town rules in DitV and the episode rules from Trollbabe.  The currency comes from my weak understanding of Uni.  So, while I'm not re-packaging the works of 30 years past, I am re-packaging.

Not that I'm trying to rag on my own system.  :)  I don't think anyone else has package these goods in this order with this goal in mind yet.  I just like to acknowlege what it is as honestly as possible.

How many of the other games that were inspired by the Fantasy Heartbreaker essays are truly heartbreakers still?

-Eric

[edited for Hukd on Fonkis]

[xenopulse]

Fair enough. It doesn't really matter what it's "categorized" as, in any case. :)

One more thought: I understand that quick-create NPCs are all going to be the same, but is there a reason (PI power balance wise, maybe) that all NPCs are going on the same stats?

I assume you've been inspired by Dogs there, but Dogs does not need to worry about whether the PCs win every single conflict with ease. It doesn't need strong adversity. Is that true for FH8 as well?

[Eric Provost]

Well, two reasons for the same-stat thing.  The first is PI power.  One of my design objectives is to keep the power of the PI to shape the story about on par with any of the other players.  I don't think that having a different form of authority over the game needs to mean a different level of power.  The second is high-speed prep.  DitV is already pretty fast, but I'm looking at shaving a few minutes off of that time.  If all your NPC sheets are the same then all you need to do is fill in the text of the Advantages and decide if this character is worth of using some of your Coins to boost it up a bit.

Also;  It's my opinion that the interesting bits of NPCs will come from their Advantage text, not from how many points they get for each one.  That'll probably hold true for both the PI and the rest of the players.  So, I don't think anything is really lost by pre-defining the numbers.

Strong adversity...

*ponder*

I don't think that DitV or FH8 need strong adversity.  As both games are strong with Nar and making players make choices then it's not all about the adversity.  But, as Tony was able to point out with Capes, adversity does not overshadow Nar.  And more than once I've been dissapointed during a DitV conflict because I knew that the Dogs would win and I knew it would cost them very little.  A lot of that had to do with the fact that we weren't very strict with each other on how good our narration had to be.

I'm going with the idea that if the PCs win, it should be interesting.  If the PCs loose, it should also be interesting.  And when the PCs win against overwhelming odds the conflict has a little more resonance with the players.  So yeah, I'm expecting that, every so often the PI is gonna drop a hammer down on the PCs and bring out some kind of conflict that he really dosen't think they have any chance of winning.  But, if I know my players, then so long as there's some way to win the conflict they'll hang on tough.  They'll decide if it's worth the Pain to try and overcome.

Hell, I won't be surprised at all if my players cheer when I dump a bucket of Coins into a conflict.  Getting your ass whooped in this game should be pretty darned entertaining. 

-Eric

Edited To Summarize;

I don't think FH8 needs strong adversity, but the possiblity of strong adversity exists, by way of Coins.  And I do not believe that any strong adversity introduced by the PI will adversly affect play.

[Eric Provost]

I've thrown together a quick character sheet.  You can find it by way of the link in my sig.

-Eric

[xenopulse]

I see now that the PI can spend coins to make stronger NPCs. Okay.

Is the PI also bound by the 3 coin per session earning limit?

[Eric Provost]

*grabs a copy and flips it open*

Crap.  It does still say that players are limited to three coins per session.  I thought I'd dumped that rule. 

*ponder*

Yeah, I guess I never got from my discussion about it with Lisa back to the compy. 

Here's the lowdown on earning Coins.  Apparently this is all just in my head right now.

The PI has no limitations on earning Coins, but can only earn coins by way of the other players activating Twinings.  When the PI plays the SD he does not earn Coins for doing SD work.  *flipping through my copy*  I can't seem to find any of that in my current version.  I wonder if I lost it during the transfer from one format to another.  Ok, lemmie explain how the PI earns coins real quick;

During a conflict, when a PC's Twining is 'activated' by the player (meaning the player draws the card for a Twining) then the PI earns a single Coin.  If the Twining happens to be worth 4 or more cards to the player then the PI earns a second Coin for that particular activation.  This is the only way that the PI earns new coins.  The intent here is to create a system where the PI can earn the ability to shape the story through the NPCs when and only when he provides the players with the conflicts that they've requested. 

The other players may earn as many as 5 coins per scene.  That's one point each for introducing a new People, Place, or Things element that is not part of the base assumptions of the current setting and two points if, at the end of the scene, everyone agrees that the base assumptions were held up for everyone to see in a new & interesting way.

So, two points per scene for upholding the statis quo in an interesting way and up to three points per scene for introducing new elements that no one already assumed were there.  All five points accessable by playing the SD for the scene.

*grabs a highlighter to mark my playtest copy*

I'm so glad you asked me that question.  The relationship of the how the PI earns coins to how the PI spends them is so important to this design.  It wouldn't be the same without it.

-Eric

[xenopulse]

Great. I like that much better. It should also encourage the PI to work together with the players when they create their characters.

So you have streamlined it in that the currency remains the same from setting creation throughout the game, which is good. However, you do write about both "tokens" and "coins" in different places throughout, that might need some cleaning up to avoid confusion. (Players get coins in Preparation but put forward tokens in Altering and Negotiating.)