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Author Topic: [FH8] Playtest PDF online  (Read 8198 times)
Eric Provost
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2005, 09:46:17 AM »

Dang.  Another missing item.  Check the last line of Prelude just above Preparation.  Then, skip to the end.  Under Advancement, second paragraph second line.  It hints at something I neglected to make explicit.

Before the beginning of an Episode it's use 'em or loose 'em time for Coins.  You'll be 'reset' to exactly five Coins for the beginning of the Episode, so you may as well use what you have left.  This means that the initial five you get in Creating Setting are also good for the Preludes but then are lost.

I'm just going to have to update the whole Currency section to include all these thoughts that I incorrectly thought were scattered around the rest of the text.

And thanks for the editing work in finding 'tokens' under Altering and Negotiating.  Obviously that bit's from before the Coins were connected.

-Eric
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2005, 12:17:58 PM »

Hiya,

You might hate this, but ...

... I think it needs a setting. Or rather, some Explorative focus. I tend toward relationships and/or specific character types, personally, as you can tell from all my games. Others tend toward a neat combination of time & place, and still others toward "adventure type."

But something. Give it an imaginative identity; if people want to apply it to some other such identity because it "could" or because it "fits," they'll do it anyway.

Best,
Ron
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Eric Provost
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2005, 12:50:29 PM »

Hate it?  No no.  I'd only hate it if you were saying that I needed to come up with a map and place names and a history for the setting and shit like that.  And I don't think that's what you're saying.

If I read you correctly, you're talking about setting elements like the relationship between humans and trolls that the Trollbabe has to deal with.  Or the relationship between Sorcerors and their Demons, right?  That kind of setting.

Tell ya' the truth, I think FH8 is halfway there.  And I totally stole it from Trollbabe.  Accidentally.  The relationship is that between the Heros and the Villains and where the PCs fall on that scale.  And, I don't remember if I posted this somewhere or if it's all just in my head right now, but I was considering earlier the idea of making the Episode and maybe the Creating Setting rules get in line with the HV thing.

For the Creating Setting mesh with HV I've only got a twinkle in my eye.  For Episodes + HV, I've got something a little stronger in mind.  I was considering setting it up so that when the PI is authoring the conflics he should always include a force that wants the PCs to be Heros and a force that wants the PCs to be Villains.

Is that what you're talking about Ron?

-Eric
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2005, 08:28:40 PM »

Oh, close enough. I think I'd like to see the hint of Color suggested by the terms like Moon get developed into a more specific array of Exploration.

But yeah, you're on target about what I'm looking for.

Best,
Ron
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Eric Provost
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2005, 08:39:10 PM »

Quote from: Ron
I think I'd like to see the hint of Color suggested by the terms like Moon get developed into a more specific array of Exploration.

Could you elaborate? 

-Eric
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2005, 06:23:53 AM »

GAhhh! No! It's your game.

OK, here's some help. You started with this as "my Fantasy Heartbreaker," right? And I'm assuming that in dog-eared notebooks or in the back of your mind, you have an old game notion that you always wanted to "do right" someday. Maybe it had kitty-people and an elaborate weapons-list with "Glaive-Guisarme" on it. Whatever.

Well, I'm suggesting (suggesting! not "saying") that you might mine all that imagery for the stuff that today seems most interesting, that you'd still like to play. Maybe a person with this set of imagery looks at his or her old notes of lizard-men with really cool colored-scale subraces and groans ... but hey, that notion of winter-magic that was tacked onto the Frost Giants was pretty cool, and the person feels some ownership over it and actually would like to see it in play somehow.

If so, then good. Find that stuff, isolate it, and never mind how you think others will judge it, make it the Explorative Center of this game. That's what Clinton did with the goblins for the Shadow of Yesterday, for instance. I don't know that the Moon/etc terminology is some vestige of your original ideas for the Perfect Fantasy RPG, but hey, it might be.

Again, I really hope you're not getting hot & bothered about the simple reality of me, personally, interacting with you about this game. Don't toss and turn at night over anything I'm talking about. It's OK to disagree with me and say, "Ballocks, I like it all generic like this."

Best,
Ron
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Eric Provost
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2005, 06:43:21 AM »

Hot & bothered?  Nope, just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying 100%.  And I think I do.

I'd selected the Sun/Moon/Stars thing kind of on a flavor whim.  You'd like to see it tied into the focus of the game more.  Gotcha.  Yeah.  I guess I can admit that I did put something in FH8 that isn't tied down well;  the titles of the Auspices.  I can dig that.

I think there is an explorative focus in the game right now.  It's just not strong yet.  I'm going to make it stronger.  Not because you said so, but because your suggestion makes sense to me and I realize that it's what I want from the game.

I'm going to ask you to extend me a little more credit Ron.  You can fire off suggestions to me without coming off overbearing or with any threat of writing the game for me.  I've spent a lot of time lurking here at the Forge.  A lot of time absorbing the good things that has come out of it recently and a lot of time wincing at the n00b errors.  Some of them my own.  So, yeah, I leaned the lesson that I can't create a good game unless I create what I want to create.  I dig it.  I'm hip to the program.  But I'm still not quite on the same page as all the other big theory heads of the Forge so I'm occationally not going to understand exactly what you mean by things like "Explorative Center" and I'll need further explination.  Please feel free to send me in the direction of threads that explain what you mean or to give me examples.  I'm ready to learn more.

And now I'd like to ask a question about the Explorative Center of Trollbabe (I don't know SoY, so I can't relate) and how I see it's parallel in FH8.

In Trollbabe, the explorative center is the relationship between a mixed-race person and how they relate to being an outsider of both races while being part of both.  Is that right?  If not, I have to learn more.  If it is right, then I have more to say.

-Eric
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2005, 07:30:46 AM »

Hiya,

Quote
In Trollbabe, the explorative center is the relationship between a mixed-race person and how they relate to being an outsider of both races while being part of both.  Is that right?  If not, I have to learn more.  If it is right, then I have more to say.

Actually, unfortunately, no, that is not correct. But it's my fault that you say this, and that all these folks who've read the game keep focusing on that.

The explorative center of Trollbabe is Woman of Power. She has a unique identity and can bring power to bear upon situations which overrides the perceptions of others about what she "should" be. That's why trollbabes are not a race, why their origins/natures are not defined and are not intended to be necessarily consistent, and why there are no trollbabes beyond the player-characters.

In practice, I have found this vision to be extraordinarily effective among people playing the game. The trollbabe's identity is only expressed through play itself, as the Color-stuff on the sheet plays no role in strategizing options. And since the most consequential mechanic is, how much risk do I bring to those close to me, I think that taps into issues that we often associate with female identity at a very deep level.

Again, I want to state that misunderstanding this and getting all whipped up about "trapped between two worlds" is my fault. I put too much into the trolls/humans thing in the current text. People therefore don't see why I get so disgusted with "half-demons" or "half-elves" or "half-vampires" versions of Trollbabe.*

In my current if desultory re-write of Trollbabe, the trolls-vs.-humans thing is considerably diminished and treated as only one of many different potential conflicts, no better nor worse than trolls-only or humans-only.

But maybe all this doesn't stonewall you, either. I'm thinking, maybe that you can run with this construction for your next set of questions just as easily.

Best,
Ron

* Although an extremely excellent version of just such a re-interpretation is current under development, and on its own, as itself, it's a great thing. Just not Trollbabe.
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Eric Provost
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2005, 07:45:23 AM »

Oh, ok.  So Trollbabe is about women of power.  I can dig that.  I don't see it in the text, so I'm looking forward to that re-write you mention.

You're right, it doesn't stonewall me.  And I'm guessing that you have an idea where I'm going with this since you knew that. 

If Trollbabe is about women of power then there are a multitude of setting and situations where that issue can be expored.  The Trollbabe setting just happense to be one of them.

So if (I say 'if') FH8's explorative center is about Heros and Villains and what they're made of then a specific setting could certainly be made to guide the players down that path.  I could probably come up with something colorful too.  That's cool.  But I chose to step up on this one.  And I'm not ready to step down yet.  I say that I can have the strong explorative center without dictating the setting specifics.  I theorize that all I have to do is guide the players into creating Heros and Villains in the story and then talk about what it is that makes those characters Heros and Villains.  And the more the players are forced to talk about it the more that exploration occurrs.

-Eric
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greyorm
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2005, 08:23:32 AM »

Eric,

I whiffed through the text really quick, mainly because I'm not gaming at all right now, so my chances of actually playing are pretty slim. I did come across one thing at the end that struck me and is sticking with me that I'd like to discuss:

Quote
the Pain and Consequence rules donít allow for a character to die unless their player chooses to narrate that death. There are plenty of reasons for this design. The most important reason being that all the PCs are the central characters to our story. If they die then part of the story ends. That should be neither random nor meaningless.

Wait! I said to myself, That doesn't make sense. Or ratther, it makes sense, but it shouldn't. Why? Because I'm looking at that statement and asking myself, "Well, why would there be any random situation of no importance to the story contained within the game? Shouldn't the events being played out, the conflicts that end up being engaged in, be immediately relevant and important to the story, such that their resolutions will be important, and death in such an instance would not be a random or meaningless thing?"

Or is FH8 is supposed to have things like: "You turn the corner and confront 20 kobolds armed with shortswords. Everyone roll initiative."?

Otherwise, anything that happens should be of importance to the story, such that if you do come across 20 kobolds and get killed, that's the story right there, because you've answered the events, you've concluded it.
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Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
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Eric Provost
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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2005, 08:50:13 AM »

I'm not really sure what you're saying Greyorm.

That the quote is redundant?  It might be.

That when a character dies during a meaningful scene then the death is automatically meaningful too?  I suppose that might be true.  But all I see happening there is turning a meaningful statement about the character into a final meaningful statement about the character.

Ok.  That's not true.

I see the meaningful statement being stronger.

Know what?  That line does suck.  I think that was one of those instances of the two gamers living in my head talking about character death.  I can do better than that.  I will do better than that. 

-Eric
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BigElvis
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2005, 03:52:54 AM »

These are playtest rules but did you write them specifically for playtesting or do you think a lot of the text is going to be in the final product. The reason why I am asking this is it seems that you are trying to write two texts in one. One text is rules and instructions for the very first time you sit down with some friends to play the game. The other text is the actual rules. It might be that I am a bit dumb but in some parts of the text it really confuses me. One thing I am confused about is the PI.
I am also confused about things like Prelude and Opening Scene, are Preludes played out for all characters before the Opening Scene? Does this happen every session?

Quote
After the prioritising, start writing out your
Advantages. If you want donít assign them to an Auspice
yet. Just make up a half dozen or a dozen Advantages that
you think fit your character, then assign them to the
Auspice you think thatís most appropriate. You can assign
up to three points to a single Advantage, but youíve got to
assign at least one point to any advantage that you leave
on your sheet. If, after youíve written down a bunch of
Advantages youíd like to re-think your Auspice priorities,
thatís ok.

The points that you can assign are equal to the value of the Auspice that the advantages are assigned to? It seems to me that they must be, it is just not crystal clear.

I am quite confused about the role of the PI.

Quote
One person sitting at the table will take on the role of
the Primary Instigator for the night and the rest will be
Character Players.

Is a "night" the same as an episode?

Is the PI only the PI for this one night and then the next time someone else is the PI? Or does he continue to be the PI for a number of episodes/sessions/nights ?

I am assuming that the PI stays the PI for some sessions and that the players play in the same setting for some episodes as well. Is it not going to be a bit difficult for the PI to come up with a good Subject and Change for the first Episode? I mean he doesn't know anything about the setting or the PC's.

Conflict resolution.

Quote
If youíre in conflict with, about, or alongside a Twining
on your character sheet, let everyone know about it
before you draw the appropriate number of cards.

Does the twining affect the number of cards that you draw. Or is the "appropriate number of cards" just your H or V score.

Pain and Consequences
Why do the specific consequences take place when you get the different amounts of pain? What's your argument for changing your H/V score, Advantages, Twinings ? I can think of some arguments, but I think you need to put them in the rules because now the changes just take place with no real explanation of why.

I hope my questions and my confusion is a help not a burden.
Lars
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Lars
Eric Provost
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2005, 05:13:57 AM »

Hiya Lars,

Thanks for your questions and for taking the time to read through those playtest rules.  I know they seem pretty wonky right now but that's mostly because they're not even close to finished.  Most of those confusing bits that got to you are due to big holes I left in the text based on my assumptions as to where the players in my group would be able to read my mind.  :D

But, a few of those confusing places you've found are confusing because I'm planning to write this game with zero assumptions left in it when I'm done.  I want this game to be a step-by-step instruction manual for playing the game with no former knowlege of gaming required to play.  That's why there seem to be those two different sets of instructions right now;  The "sitting down to play tonight" rules and the rest of the rules.  It's my intention to eventually blend it all together with a "subsequent nights of play" section.

All the characters' preludes are indeed played out before the opening scene, but each character recieves one and only one prelude.  So, subsequent sessions won't have any more preludes unless there's a reason for a new PC to be introduced (new player to the game, previous PC killed off, etc)

Quote
The points that you can assign are equal to the value of the Auspice that the advantages are assigned to?

Right on the nose.  I know it's not very clear.  I think that's because the Auspice/Advantage relationship isn't still crystal clear in my head yet.  Even in playtest I still wonder about it and it's living up to my expectations.

The PI's time in office is way simpler than my text makes it out to be.  The player who's the PI stays the PI througout the episode.  At the end of the episode a different player can be picked.

An Episode may or may not be a single session.  An Episode is a unit of story that starts with the Opening Scene and continues until the Subject has been changed.

The PI actually has an easy time coming up with a good Subject and Forces of change.  All he has to do is look at the Twinings of the other players' characters.  My goal is to provide a streamlined step-by-step process of writing the episode that can be completed in as little as 15 minutes.  That way, if there's enough time after the Preludes in the first session, all the PI has to do is declare a food break while he takes a little quiet time to jot down some notes, maybe fill out a worksheet (provided by the text of the game), and fill in the Twinings of the characters to get a first Episode.

Quote
Does the twining affect the number of cards that you draw. Or is the "appropriate number of cards" just your H or V score.
The Twining does affect the number of cards you draw.  You'll draw a number of cards equal to the points assigned to the Twining.

I've left out your question on Pain and Consequences, but I need to reference my copy of the game to answer properly, and I've got to run for now.  I'll be back later to answer that bit.

-Eric
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Eric Provost
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2005, 06:22:10 AM »

Okies, I'm back.

Quote
Pain and Consequences
Why do the specific consequences take place when you get the different amounts of pain? What's your argument for changing your H/V score, Advantages, Twinings ? I can think of some arguments, but I think you need to put them in the rules because now the changes just take place with no real explanation of why.

I can say with 100% certainty that there will be none of the explanation that you're looking for in the final version of the rules.  What there will be is a small paragraph on narrating why you (as a player) took the Consequences you took for your character.  All of which basically comes down to;  The narration that occurred during the conflict will certainly have said something about how your character was hurt in the process.  By the end of that conflict you should already have some ideas in mind for how your character has changed.  The Consequences you pick should reflect that change that's already occurred in your imagination.  That way the Consequences will help support the imagined changes and help share that change with the other players.

As for how I decided on the elements you may choose from at each level of Pain, well... I didn't have a strong concept in mind when I first wrote them up.  I really began with the idea of modifying the DitV conflict rez system to run with playing cards.  Cuz I thought it might be neato.  But now, after a bit of playtesting, I can say that each stage should be ever stronger reflections in change for the character.  The more Pain you take the more your character should be changed as a result of the conflict.

Does all that make sense?  Did I answer all your questions?

-Eric
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BigElvis
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Posts: 48


« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2005, 01:41:27 AM »

Hey Eric, I realized that I didn't really throw any compliments your way. I think the game looks very interesting and I would really like to actually playtest it.

Yeah it makes sense. And I kinda knew that would be your reply, there are just some of the consequences that I don't find completely logical. I will read them again and get back to it.

Looking at your actual play thread with the lizards gave me a much better understanding of specifically how the SD and the PI work together.(and I will post a couple of questions in that thread as well)

I still don't quite understand the switching of the position of PI. This means that the one who was PI would have to make a PC to play. But what about the PC that the new PI has been playing. Does he become an NPC controlled by the PI. I think that could bring some problems.

Plus you wrote this at the end of the pdf
Quote
The CPs become connected to their PCs and the PI becomes connected to his favorite NPCs.
which conveys to me that position of PI isn't switched, or at least not very often.

The Auspices
I think you should change the names of the auspices. When I read the rules Sun, Moon and Stars stuck out as the very colorful terms they are. I think that if you play in a setting where there are 50 suns that revolve around a floating cube of water wherein mermen live in perpetual sea-daylight Moon and Stars will stick out on the character sheet as being incoherent.
Quote
Advantages of the Sun show us how your character hurts people. Itís the Auspice of causing pain and suffering
Is this pain and suffering only physical or does Sun also include your "bad breakup" advantage?
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Lars
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