[Sorcerer] Disciples of Christ

[pedyo]

Hi,

Second try...

I am thinking of starting up a Sorcerer campaign. I have some ideas that I really like, but I'm uncertain how to continue.

I have described the basics here:http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16343.0 (please don't respond in that thread since I posted in the wrong forum).

The reason why I'm posting this now – before even discussing much of this with the players (apart from mentioning the idea briefly) is that I'd very much like to understand this process better – and that I'd like to have the idea nailed down a bit more, before introducing the characters.

Now, I can see that in my first post I sort of guessed at what the players would want their characters to do – and that's probably a bad idea (?). On the other hand, I really want them to play these specific types of characters – Disciples of Christ – and to face the moral question, what are you willing to do for your belief? Or, perhaps a better question – are you willing to compromise your belief to save your life?

My questions now are:

Is this a "broken" Sorcerer concept?

Any thoughts on Humanity in such a game?

Are there any obvious pitfalls I'm not seeing here?

Etc.

Best

Peter

[Judd]

I'm not sure I like demons being DEMONS from Satan.

Why not angels, prophets and such?  Read up on your biblical angels; they're scary.

My questions now are:

Is this a "broken" Sorcerer concept?

Any thoughts on Humanity in such a game?

Are there any obvious pitfalls I'm not seeing here?

No, I think it has loads of possibilities.  Someone a long time ago said that Sorcerer is a very Catholic game.

Humanity= Mercy?

I'm not fond of the demon definition.

Do the players take up the roles of the folks at the Last Supper or can they make up their own lost disciples?

I think its interesting.

[pedyo]

Hi Paka,
Many thanks for your reply.
I think that the player's could/should play "the not so well known"/made-up disciples so that it becomes very clear that we don't have to follow the actual storyline of the first Christians.
I'm not sure what to make of your dislike of the demons being Demons of Satan himself - is this just a personal dislike or is there a game-reason for this? Would they somehow disrupt play?
/Peter

[Clinton R. Nixon]

This is a great idea. I've often wanted to run a similar campaign - Sorcerer 0 A.D., where you play prophets, false messiahs, or all other sorts in the year Jesus was born.

The demon definition, by the way, you've got one fan for. I'd be interested to know why Judd dislikes it. I highly, highly suggest, though, that you read The Sorcerer's Soul, which contains rules for angels. As long as you're using the Christian mythos, using the angel rules would be awesome.

I'm not sure Ron would agree, but I often describe Sorcerer as the most Christian role-playing game I've ever seen. I'm glad to see it taken to this source material.

As for Humanity, one thought I had was using "free will" as Humanity. That's a common biblical theme, and I see Christian demons and angels as primarily being devourers of free will. Both of them compel people to follow them instead of follow their own conscience or spirit.

[Judd]

I don't think it'll disrupt play.  I'm not sure why demons as demons bugs me...just not sure.

Something gitchy about it to me.

[Lamorak33]

Hi Pedyo

Kerstin asked on the other thread, in relation to the great ideas you have, how much player input you had.  It seemed from what you wrote that you would be making a lot of decisions that are normaly reserved for players, which of course is a concern for a narratavist agenda.  Others no doubt will present the concern more cogently than a newbie like myself.

I am looking for some ideas for a Sorcerer game (got the rules a few days ago) so I am watching this thread eagerely.

Regards
Rob

[Lamorak33]

Hi Pedyo

Kerstin asked on the other thread, in relation to the great ideas you have, how much player input you had.  It seemed from what you wrote that you would be making a lot of decisions that are normaly reserved for players, which of course is a concern for a narratavist agenda.  Others no doubt will present the concern more cogently than a newbie like myself.

I am looking for some ideas for a Sorcerer game (got the rules a few days ago) so I am watching this thread eagerely.

Regards
Rob

This is the link by the way

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16343.0

[Trevis Martin]

Someone mentioned the Sorcerer Catholic thread which I think you might like to check out.  Here it is.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4598.0

best

Trevis

[M. J. Young]

I, too, think Sorcerer a very Christian game, at least in its potential.

My problem with the demon definition is that it says pretty much up front that the miraculous powers exercised by the disciples are in opposition to the message of their faith, and that seems like a game breaker to me. I'm not entirely sure how to fix it, though.

The direction I would go would suggest that the "demons" are the power of God, but that the more immersed you are in that power the more you lose of yourself. I've something of an image of Merlin from the end of C. S. Lewis' That Hideous Strength, which I think is probably a critical piece of literature for you to examine in connection with your idea (Ransom discourses with angels and Merlin ultimately is possessed by them; meanwhile, the villains are dealing with demons under a different name). The more you surrender your will to His, the more power you exercise, but the more it consumes you.

That's really a very unformed idea, but at least it can point you in a possible direction.

--M. J. Young

[jrs]

Peter,

That is an interesting Sorcerer concept, and I really like the early, pre-institutionalized Christianity setting.  I have two points I'd like to make:

1. I strongly recommend that you follow the book, Sorcerer, that is, and set up the definition of humanity, demons, etc. as a group. 

2. If I were to play in your game, I would lobby hard for demons representing Christ.  And yes, that would mean a multiplicity of Christ which I think is entirely appropriate for the setting you describe.

Julie

[pedyo]

Julie - thanks for your comments - I do have a few questions, however...

Peter,

That is an interesting Sorcerer concept, and I really like the early, pre-institutionalized Christianity setting.  I have two points I'd like to make:

1. I strongly recommend that you follow the book, Sorcerer, that is, and set up the definition of humanity, demons, etc. as a group. 

From reading Sorcerer a couple of times and Sorcerer's Soul as well as quite a few posts here about preparing for and playing Sorcerer (not to mention all the different One Sheets I've read) I have gotten the impression, that those definitions are made by the GM? I might be mistaken (lots of old RPG habits to break)...

2. If I were to play in your game, I would lobby hard for demons representing Christ.  And yes, that would mean a multiplicity of Christ which I think is entirely appropriate for the setting you describe.

Now this is an intriguing idea. Would you mind expanding a bit on it? Meanwhile, I can explain some of the reasoning behind my ideas of demons and Humanity: I'd like the moral questions to centre around the easy temptation of Satan - the easy access to power, for instance. "I can give you power and wealth and people will worship you" - and that accepting the teachings of Christ is to refuse that and live with the fact that you'll have a hard time with people not believing you, persecuting you etc. I mean - what would your wife, fx, say if you gave up your job (= income to support her and the children) and spent your days peraching about Jesus, spreading the Gospel? To me, those are interesting dilemmas - and I'm rather sure that the other players I have in mind would think so, too.

The twist, of course, is - that if you want to survive you will most definitely be tempted to use the demonic powers - and using them will lead you away from Christ. What's more important - your life or you belief?

/Peter

[jrs]

I'm going to back out of my point one and say that Ron (and others) will be more help to you there.  But, I will say that my point two (and this brief follow-up) is the type of discussion you should be having with your players.

As for point two--

And Jesus said, "Follow me."

... we have left everything and followed you. Mark 10:28
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons ... Luke 9:1
For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. Matthew 24:5

The above verses are my inspiration.  I'm thinking that a Disciple of Christ would be a sorcerer whose dilemma is "What price would I pay to spread the word of God?"

Julie

[Lamorak33]

Julie - thanks for your comments - I do have a few questions, however...

Peter,

That is an interesting Sorcerer concept, and I really like the early, pre-institutionalized Christianity setting.  I have two points I'd like to make:

1. I strongly recommend that you follow the book, Sorcerer, that is, and set up the definition of humanity, demons, etc. as a group. 

From reading Sorcerer a couple of times and Sorcerer's Soul as well as quite a few posts here about preparing for and playing Sorcerer (not to mention all the different One Sheets I've read) I have gotten the impression, that those definitions are made by the GM? I might be mistaken (lots of old RPG habits to break)...

Hi

I am currently setting up a game, so tell me if this is just plain wrong, but part of the premise or theme of Sorcerer is that the players have a very clear idea of Humanity so they are aware of what there actions can result in prior to actually saying so.  As humanity is left to individual groups to decide exactly what it means, it may be important to include the players in the defining process so you can reach a concensus before play begins.

Regards
Rob

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I think we're going in circles and not helping.

Let's treat everything that's been presented here not as the rock-solid dogma of play-to-come, but rather a document that Peter is going to show his group. In my experience, such documents do very well to maximize "look and feel" and to provide a pretty good Humanity definition. A single discussion at that point works very well. Most of the details are provided through character creation and scenario prep, after that.

For that purpose, let's all just assume that the discussion of the sheet will result in all sorts of ideas and things from the other people involved. Given that, what suggestions may be useful at this stage, before that?

Best,
Ron

[pedyo]

Hi Ron,
Thanks - I think that would be a very good way of looking at it - I am so much not trying to push anything down the other player's throats. What I AM trying to, is to come up with a general concept and discuss it with my players (who by the way have never tried Sorcerer and therefore would need such a concept to work from, I think).
So, thanks for the suggestion.
Best
Peter