Tabletop to CRPG? Share your thoughts...

[exploreRPG]

I am a professional software engineer that has also developed what I think to be a near-perfect model for table-top RPGs to be converted to CRPGs. My design, while it does mimmic the Infinite Engine, or the d20 rules set allows for RPGs from any genre to be re-created using percentage based stats.

Explorations features a 100% database design.. It allows for sharable objects with graphics, sounds, and special effects to be imported & exported from the engine. Explorations is designed to allow game "scenarios" to be recreated from PnP modules similar to those featured in Dungeon or Dragon Magazine.

I'm an old-scholl RPG lover so it has taken me 10 years to perfect this engine. The interface is drag & drop and has enough support tools to make game development more efficient the more its used. Enough of my babble.. Please take some time to read the links below and tell me what you think.

(A lot of information below..You can skip to the screenshots if u need more encouragement. :) )
Here are some links of interest..
- Make Better RPG's not just better Graphics..

- Explorations Summary

- Explorations ShowCase

- Scenario Scripting

Explorations is NOT freeware.. It is the core engine I'll be using to produce my 1st commercial game, and MMO game world. Every game created with Explorations supports up to 10players on line as a party, or can be played as a MMO game world.

Explorations (Official Home)
http://www.explore-rpg.com

[M. J. Young]

Welcome to the Forge. Care to share a name by which we can address you? We tend to be a real-names place here, even among those who use screen names on their posts.

I don't want to minimize what you've done, as it's clear that you've accomplished a great deal. What I'm not seeing is how, or even whether, Explore RPG handles the more innovative concepts in current games, such as Legends of Alyria, Sorcerer, My Life With Master, Universalis. In particular, does it manage the transition between the task-based resolution of older games such as D&D to the outcome-based resolution of games such as Alyria, and how does it allow players to creatively narrate outcomes when they fall in their favor?

If you don't understand what I'm saying, probably you aren't as familiar with the world of PnP role playing, particularly in its current aspects. This is a good place to become familiar with these newer approaches. Many people would like to see role playing games that handle narrativist objectives and drama mechanics, but this quest is hampered by the tendency of CRPGs to be emulating older fortune/karma driven games with simulationist and gamist objectives. That is, around here people are struggling with the questions of how to make a computer game in which the player decides what happens in order to make a statement about a moral or personal issue expressed through the character, in which the "object of the game" has nothing to do really with what the character is trying to achieve or solve but with whether the player is able to make such a statement through the events of play.

I'd invite you to read some of the articles, particularly The Provisional Glossary which summarizes quite a lot of current thought, and my own Applied Theory which attempts to illustrate many of the ideas in application. I'd also mention a three part series at Places to Go, People to Be entitled Theory 101 which attempts to cover a lot of the basics. The first part, System and the Shared Imagined Space, which discusses how role playing games work in a fundamental way, and the second part, The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast, which speaks of the relationship between the person running the game and those playing it, may help you considerably in understanding what a CRPG would have to do to truly handle what modern role playing games are doing. The third part, Creative Agenda, is not yet out, but when it appears it should provide significant help in connection with some of the terminology used here, as well as explaining why some players really like some games and others don't like those same games at all.

I hope this helps. Thanks for sharing your ideas. I can see an engine like that being very useful in developing a Multiverser CRPG, although I'm not sure whether that's a direction I really want to pursue at present.

--M. J. Young

[Gordon C. Landis]

And if you're interested in some of the other approaches being taken with computers, RPGs and storytelling, I can point you at Greg Costikyan's weblog (http://www.costik.com/weblog/), Chris Crawford's Erazmatron (http://www.erasmatazz.com/), and the actually-runable Facade at http://www.interactivestory.net/.  That last site also has an excellent links section for more exploration.

None of which, as M.J. Young says, should be seen as an attempt to minimize what you've done in Explorations, which looks cool!  Congratulations on getting something like that working - I understand how hard both software and game design can be.  I definitely like the idea of a growing "indie" computer game community as well as indie tabletop games, so - thanks!

One thing that would be interesting to hear more from you on is just exactly what about the tabletop RPG experience you are trying to capture in Explorations.  The links M.J has pointed out are great for learning how we talk about that kind of thing here, but an initial "in your own words" post might be cool as well.  And again, welcome to the Forge,

Gordon

[exploreRPG]

Hi guys..

I'm sorry it took me so long to return to this forum. First, let me introduce myself.. I am Tyrone W. Lee.. I'm a Lead software developer who has spent the past 10+ years trying to develop game engine capable of table-top PnP rpgs. I also grew up in the days of AD&D and ShadowRun. Without turning this into a shameless self promotion I'll highlight the 3 aspects of Explorations that takes the "next-step" in rpg development.

1) A full database design.. Explorations uses standard stats design to relate objects, characters, and maps. This database design allows for interoperability. Create a spell include the effects, sound effects, and animations and simply package the entire spell as an .EOBJ object for anyone to use. Explorations seperates yet binds the functionality data, graphics, and sound.  You can bind object, sprites, and scenarios to form unique re-usable game objects. (The Weaponshop scenario is an object I created.)

2) To accomplish the dynamics of PnP rpgs means scripting or some form of programming. Explorations has a very nice A.I. based script design. Apply scripts to objects, sprites, or maps to simulate the moral or personal issues within your game. Basically, you are acting as if you are playing the table top game as you are designing it. You can add/save factoids as you script the game to simulate this effect..

Lets be realistic.. When you play a PnP rpg, the DM will jot notes on the players behavior and based on his notes he ad-libs his story. Explorations attempts to remove the work from graphics, animation, and programming to allow you to have more time to consider this "ad-lib" game development style during your scripting. You will never script every possibility, but you'll have more free time to encorporate this because of all the support tools Explorations provides.

By designing tables you can use a simple variable for <overall happiness>. And as the game is being scripted you are adjusting this variable based on the players decisions during the game. +/- here and there to determine his overall happiness. As you script your game u make the decision just as if you were playing a PnP game and taking notes.

You use this variable at any time during the game and construct your game around it. The AI scripting is designed by you.. its a high-level programming language design for rpg development.

The example I posted regarding "Better RPG's not just better Graphics" was taken from a passage from Dungeon Magazine. Explorations design was centered around taking a PnP story organized as text in this form and scripting a CRPG. You'll notice this PnP stories always have a series of If/Then statements for the DM to consider. This is where your scripting comes in. The script engine is scriptable, so new commands are added when discovered and based on the knowledge I see here, you guys could really enhance the command base of Explorations scripting.

From my opinion AI is achieved by gathering information and collecting relative data to make logical decisions. This is best achieved with databases. Explorations is an open ended data-management system, so RPGs from any genre can be created. This means you control the game ruleset. The fixed stats were intended to be generic and acceptable in any rpg genre.

Some of the key feature of AI are pathfinding and programming NPCs to use some form of intelligence. Explorations scripting has functions such as FindCover{}, FindPerpendicularLocation{} and relative movement and position functions that are derived to allow NPCs to analyze the position of other sprites in relation to its own position for a given purpose.

How you use these functions are up to you.. But they are available.

I will download facade.. I've seen it but was unsure of if it was a safe download. :)

I hope many of you can add some of your ideas to my forum.. I'm really interested in hearing these concepts.

here's a piece of eye candy..



Tyrone W. Lee
Explorations RPG System
http://www.explore-rpg.com

[M. J. Young]

I think I'm getting a glimmer of what you're saying here. If I've got you right, this is not so much a solo CRPG as a role playing game platform through which a referee can run games enhanced by graphics and self-operating elements--something like NeverWinter Nights, if I understand that correctly. You would still have a human being ultimately behind everything, but the computer would facilitate expression of the shared imagined space and streamline a lot of the aspects at which computers are better than people (e.g., rapid number crunching for combat situations).

Am I on the right track here?

--M. J. Young

[exploreRPG]

No..

Explorations doesn't offer "Live" DM support.. It's a computer rpg engine. The "live" DM, was an idea that I cosindered but never spent time to develop. The theory behind the design is to all you to script the AI that you would normally do if you were sitting at the table playing a PnP game. PnP modules such as the one I mentioned (above) explain all the "What If" scenarios and give you ideas on how to ad-lib the game accordingly.

Explorations allows this to be scripted. Based on how you design your game world, you can allow morality, or other parameters to be a factor in how NPCs react to players. It's simply a matter of quantifying the parameter into a value the computer can manage. That coupled with databases offers the dynamics to do what you like.

I guess, Explorations is best viewed as a standard framework for any RPG to be created. I've tried to take the "common" fixed areas of rpgs (character stats) and build hundreds of game features, tools, and database algorithms to support the more complicated game features. (AI, pathfinding etc..) There is no such thing as a"one-size fits all."  But I'm proud to say, Explorations is as close as you can get without falling into the arena of "cookie-cutter" game engines. The database design allows every object to cross-reference to allow virtually infinite possibilities..

Explorations games don't "help you along." You are dropped into a free-form world where the story is taking place whether you participate or not. (Time based scripting etc..)

The overall goal of Explorations was to possibly package a CD rpg game of every PnP module that was submitted and published to Dungeon Magazine. Buy the book, read the stories.. play the game.. ;)

Hope I clarified everything.. BTW, why can't I edit posts I make? I always have spelling mistakes..

Tye

[Vaxalon]

The theory behind the design is to all you to script the AI that you would normally do if you were sitting at the table playing a PnP game.

I don't understand.  What AI do I script when I'm sitting at the table?

[exploreRPG]

Here's a scenario..

Code Select Expand


The party enters the house of a wizard that they need to determine the location of a magical gem. When they enter the wizards home, there are 2 assassins already there. They are attempting to put an end to the wizard, once and for all.


Based on what the PC's do, you have to make the NPCs respond with intelligence. Sure combat is pretty fixed. But you can allow the wizard to begin telling the important clues to the quest while fighting, especially if the wizard is getting his butt kicked.

If the wizard doesn't get to tell the players anything the game engine just sits there. The players must search the house and figure out what the wizard was going to tell them by other means..

If the part members defeat the assassins.. The wizard sits down with them and the story continues as normal.

These are all what if outcomes that can be scripted..


Games like Metal Gear Solid made some great steps in AI with the use of stealth based gameplay. But remember, when you walk on water puddles, it makes a noise, and the guards goes to investigate. This is AI. furthermore, if the noise persists, the guard could call some friends to do a thorough search of the compound. Thus, causing the chance of being detected to increase dramatically.

Basically, Explorations allows you to create a scenario.. And ask yourself.. What whould I do in this situation. Then you script for each out-come. Always trying to keep in mind there is a "default" fall through that reveals the key points of the game/story of the players are a little "slow".. (he he) Once the scenario is scripted it can be exported and packages as a re-usable game object. Its saved in a .EMAP file format so you can script/create other scenarios.

Does this help?

Tye

[Vaxalon]

To me, your scripting utility is a TREMENDOUS weakness in the design.

When the players do something unexpected in a FTF tabletop game, that's a golden moment.  If I'm there in person, I get to participate in it, experience it, enhance it and react to it.  Their creativity is rewarded.

This is a good thing.

If the players try to do something unexpected in a scripted CRPG... one of two things happens.  Either they are completely unable to try, or it fails utterly.  Their creativity has been stomped flat.

This is a bad thing.

I would MUCH rather see a game where I can control the settings of the game AS THE PLAYERS EXPERIENCE IT.  I'd like to be able to point-and-click on creatures to make them talk, move, etc. if the players depart from what I've prepared.  I'd like to have a tool like in Dungeon Keeper 2, where I can "posess" a creature and direct it in first-person.  I'd like to have a library of creatures that I can pull in if the situation warrants.

I should be able to communicate with the players "out of character".  If a scene needs to end, I should be able to initiate a fade to black.

And scripting should be as UNlike computer programming as possible.

[exploreRPG]

Vaxalon,

You are missing a very critical point.. What you want is a "live" DM game.  Which is very simple to do, its just a matter of putting the controls over any current game engine to make the effects trigger/run live. (no brainer)

Explorations wasn't designed for "live" DMs. It was designed to capture what is expressed in written DnD modules as explained above. Making a PC fully intelligent is not the scope of a game engine. Expecting it is ridiculous. At best, you can free up the game developers time so that he can incorporate better game scripts.. (moving in the direction of AI.)

You consider the scripting utility a "TREMENDOUS" weakness.. But you fail to realize that scripting of some sort is required for AI of any type. PC's don't respond to a humans voice,so there would obviously be some form of coding or scripting whether u see it or not. ;)

Saying that.. my script language is in fact scriptable.. Allowing users to build premade macros from the core script commands and syntax parameters.. Allowing multiple command groups to be run in sequence. If this was applied to your "live" DM expectations, it would make controlling sprites a 1 step process rather than 2.

I would MUCH rather see a game where I can control the settings of the game AS THE PLAYERS EXPERIENCE IT.  I'd like to be able to point-and-click on creatures to make them talk, move, etc. if the players depart from what I've prepared.  I'd like to have a tool like in Dungeon Keeper 2, where I can "posess" a creature and direct it in first-person.  I'd like to have a library of creatures that I can pull in if the situation warrants.

You can do this naturally within Explorations.. The engine started there and improved to time-based scripts.. Could you give an example? Just saying "I'd like to be able to point * click on creatures to make them talk and move, etc.."  doesn't say much.

You can point click and control sprites in Explorations and many other game engines.. And u can make the response change based on what the players do.. As in the steath/guard example..

Script the NPCs general "job" for that day.. He patrols...
If he hears a noise he investigates.. If not he will continue to patrol.
He may fall asleep.. He could take a lunch break, or whatever. Either way, you script the course of an entire "day" for the NPC..And then offer AI checks to deviate from the standard path.

Basically thats what happens in our lives.. We goto work and have a pretty routine day.. If there is an accident on the road you take to work, you take an alternate route. You respond to the surroundings.. Once you have established this general AI script.. You can add randomness later that can be based on NPC stats.. You can equate the level of the "incident" to adjust the degree that the NPC reacts.

As a software developer, I don't really see any better way to accomplish AI.

When the player does something "unexpected" you said they should be rewarded. This is obsurd. What if the players did something totally stupid.. for which they should be penalized. In anycase their action has to be analyzed and evaluated on the situation. At best, if you can equate actions to a computer comparable value, with databases you can attempt to determine if the action should be rewarded or penalized.

If you used MS Word spell checker, it has the ability to "sound out" mispelled words to find like words and offer suggestions. I have a spell check within Explorations that does the same. Basically, it forces a numerical value for vowel sounds and established a table of comparison. If you can compare, you can estable a good/bad relationship and make the game behave accordingly *without* a live DM. - is it perfect? no.. But it is the foundation for powerful AI comparisons.

If you are hooked on a "live" DM... The software required to do it, is nothing more than a digital front end to table top RPGS. The control behind it is still human, and requiring a live person to make the game playable.. I thought this thread was about attempting to incorporate the AI humans use to "ad-lib" a table top RPG within a packaged software product. Creating a "live" DM engine isn't really that impressive...  Making smarter RPG engines with A.I. assisted scripts takes some effort. ;)

Tye

[Callan S.]

Hello Tye,

What Vax is refering to, I think, is basically a role reversal of GM and player. In a game, a GM might challenge a player with a particular situation. HOWEVER, the player might then come up with such a good responce it then goes on to challenge the GM. In this way, the player has sort of becomes GM for a moment, and the GM becomes player.

When the player does something "unexpected" you said they should be rewarded. This is obsurd. What if the players did something totally stupid.. for which they should be penalized. In anycase their action has to be analyzed and evaluated on the situation. At best, if you can equate actions to a computer comparable value, with databases you can attempt to determine if the action should be rewarded or penalized.

The player wont do something totally stupid in table top play, because that wont result in anything interesting from the GM, either in responce or most importantly, in peer appreciation.

Is computer GM to player/player to GM possible in a computer RPG? I think it is, and you've already been talking about it. I've done this in the PS2 game mercenaries, where I've toyed with enemy soldiers, spooking them, sneaking up on them, lobbing multiple flashbangs at 'em, pushing them in various ways to see what behaviours I can get out of them. You've already talked about scripting such things, but you probably just thought it was to challenge the player, right?

The fun thing is when in game resources flip the GM/player rolls back and forth. Say I'm toying with a soldier and really making him sweat...then a buddy of his runs out with an RPG and shoots me! Now I'm at 1 HP and running from the dude I was toying with. This basically would happen alot in mercenaries and I liked it.

[exploreRPG]

Is computer GM to player/player to GM possible in a computer RPG? I think it is, and you've already been talking about it. I've done this in the PS2 game mercenaries, where I've toyed with enemy soldiers, spooking them, sneaking up on them, lobbing multiple flashbangs at 'em, pushing them in various ways to see what behaviours I can get out of them. You've already talked about scripting such things, but you probably just thought it was to challenge the player, right?

The fun thing is when in game resources flip the GM/player rolls back and forth. Say I'm toying with a soldier and really making him sweat...then a buddy of his runs out with an RPG and shoots me! Now I'm at 1 HP and running from the dude I was toying with. This basically would happen alot in mercenaries and I liked it.

Yes... And I agree 150%.. But I didn't consider this a "role reversal".. I still consider the GM being the GM.. And for a reason.. It keeps logical order in the software world.. :)

But saying that a script language can't/ or is a "TREMENDOUS" weakness is not true. Premade scripts can ease the burden of being a live GM. Furthermore, lets look at some problems live GM's style games.

Games that support split party.. (no games yet..) Explorations allows each player to split-up and exist anywhere in the game world. On table top games, the GM would go back  forth between players intervals to share the gaming experience.. "15 minutes of game play, and meanwhile...."

With a CRPG, this isn't going to work.. If the party splits up they want to play.. They don't want to sit and wait while the live GM point clicks and adventure together for the other partymembers.. Instead, let the computer aid in the gameplay while a live GM overlays "live enhancements"..

Now.. Explorations doesn't support live GM but thats how I would achieve it.. The game can have tons of premade AI scripts.. You can make the sprites as smart as you like.. For example..

There is a general knowledge database for each map. In theory, you can walk up to ANY NPC and ask him where the weaponshop is located. You can create search tags, for weapons shop. And apply a response statement describing where the shop is located.. (You can even make the script roll an INT check.) failing the check means the NPC doesn't know.

During the scripting process.. You can lay out the scenario and problem that is to be solved. You can then script the range of actions that could yield a reward or penalty. (You say people won't do something stupid, be we know human nature.) And furthermore a player who rolls a character with a LOW intelligence can't play like Einstien, it simply makes the character look un-realistic.

As a GM it just means you plan ahead.. Consider the possibilities and script for it.. You'll never get every possibility, but with databases, look-up information, and custom variables to monitor the situation you can make reactions occur. Explorations allows this to happen. And it's design decreases alot of the graphics & animation work so you can concentrate on scenarios and AI.

The Weaponshop example is a full day scripted for a functioning weapons shop. (pass #1 scripting) I can now apply scripts that detect thieves, and cause the guards to attack.. I can now add scripts of "accidents" that cause the guards to leave for emergency reasons.

When u enter the shop.. it will function like a real weapons shop.. People will enter and leave like they have a purpose. The shop keeper is scripted to talk to NPCs. How much you script, or add to the interaction is up  to you.. So the limit is up to the work u put into it. Explorations supports relative movement and scripts, so positions can be calculated at an instance.

Within Explorations Combat.. NPCs can fight each other.. They have a demeanor value, and a loyalty value. If a group of NPCs attack a PC in hand2hand combat, while another NPC uses a distance weapon.. If the NPC with the distance weapon accidently shoots his friends, it is a possibility they will consider him a traitor and attack him. I am working on some "group concensus" AI.. So that NPCs analyze like NPCs and follow the "central leader" in combat...

There is also formations, attack patterns, divide & concur.. and tons of ideas that make NPCs look intelligent..

I sincerely thing the tools are there.. More can be added, but I'd love to hear some clear examples of a scenario that I could *attempt* to reproduce within Explorations.

Tye

[Vaxalon]

Now.. Explorations doesn't support live GM but thats how I would achieve it.. The game can have tons of premade AI scripts.. You can make the sprites as smart as you like.. ...

Eh... I don't think you understand.

I'm saying, "When the players think of something I didn't think of, that's a good thing, and I don't want to crush it, and that requires that I *be there*."

You seem to be responding, "But you can handle everything you can think of in the game!  Just keep making scripts!"

Do you see that that's an inadequate response?

The reason I play RPGs rather than CRPGs is because the only limit is the COLLECTIVE imagination of the players, and the rather light limitations of the ruleset..  In your game, the limits are MY imagination, and the structural limitations of the engine.  Do you see that there is more limitation in the latter compared to the former?

[exploreRPG]

Well.. I'm telling you that your expectation is not practical. Expecting to make a "perfect" game is not realistic. Especting to make a game with full GM interaction that is real-time is also not very practical.

1) How many people are u saying can play in this world?
2) The split party issue I discussed will cause major problems if you expect to live GM the game.

I'm saying that you script as much as possible ahead of time, and your overlay live enhancements. You say my response is "inadequate" but your expectation is unrealistic. If you expect to 100% live GM a video game, you'll have ALOT of dead-space in your game.Points where the player waits while you make up the game.

Of course there are limitations when comparing a CRPG to a table top RPG. The moment a variable is declared you have established a limit. If you say, I'm make a character for a CRPG and his gold is going to be stored in a Long data-type, you've instantly established a limit on the money any character can posses. Establishing limits is a necessary evil of software development.. (period)

Humans can write stats for a player stating his gold is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 and that value will not fit into a Long data-type.. There are software developers who write entire applications for BANKS to manipulate REAL monetary transaction that have exceeded normal primatives of a PC.

You are saying... when a player thinks of something you didn't its a "good thing".. And I'm merely pointing out, thats *your opinion*. You must personally like surprises. But that doesn't mean that your idea is a proper aproach to designing a CRPG. You sound as if you expect a CRPG to act "human." - It will never do this.

At best, you can simply make a better quality CRPG with better twists, endings, and more detailed scenarios.

My response is true.. "Just keep making scripts!" - Because this topic is regarding CRPGs, and making them more dynamic. How do you expect to get an idea from your head into a PC? osmosis? Whether is code or scripting, there is going to be a language to help you along..

For example: While you are in your "hypothetical" live GM interface. You (as the GM) would want to be able to broadcast a message to all players.. Or send private messages to specific players.. You see two different button, but you do realize there is software that makes it happen? A script, a function, something...

As soon as you expect to have this GM framework running on a PC, you *MUST* work within the framework and limitations of the PC.. Its like you are saying.. "Design me a software application that runs on a PC and takes up absolutely 0 ram."

From a software design approach, your theory while explains an IDEAL condition is unrealistic. You should always work from a standard an move toward an ideal condition.. NOT assume you can hit the bullseye on the first attempt.

Adding more scripts, more and databases means more information by which to make the PC more human. Giving the PC more data means u have to control/manage the data with more scripts.. These scripts add logic to the application and eventually you establish a balance where general gameplay can be handled by the PC. .And the live GM is needed for overlayed enhancements..

Trying to run an entire PC game live is impossible.. unless u have 8 arms or something...

Start with *realistic* expectations and improve to your ideal condition. That is the attempt of Explorations... If you don't humble your expectations, you spend you entire life complaining and writing endless text on RPG theory without actually *doing* anything.

Tye

[Vaxalon]

You are saying... when a player thinks of something you didn't its a "good thing".. And I'm merely pointing out, thats *your opinion*. You must personally like surprises. But that doesn't mean that your idea is a proper aproach to designing a CRPG.

This sentence indicates to me that you DO now, understand my position, so I'm done here.

This is clearly an "agree to disagree" moment.