[In a Land Called...] Console RPGs done timfire's way

[timfire]

Hi everyone,

This is my new project, that I'm tenatively calling "In a Land Called...": www.timfire.com/ialc.pdf

The general set-up is that some evil plot threatens to---literally---destroy the world, and only an eclectic group of adventurers can stop it. It's highly inspired by old-school Japanese-style console RPG's, most notably Final Fantasy and other Squaresoft games. But worth noting, I'm interested in emulating the narrative aspects of these games, not the game-y elements.

This project has been in the back of my head since like last summer, but I was too busy working on The Mountain Witch to do much with it. I have a solid foundation, I believe, but it's still very much in the pre-alpha stage. While general comments are always welcomed, right now I have two questions:

1. For those of you familiar with Final Fantasy and other SNES-style console RPGs, how well do you think this design will emulate the genre? Am I missing anything about this genre?

2. For everyone else, throughout the PDF I express my hopes and goals for the design. How well do you feel my desgin choices match up with my stated goals?

[Eero Tuovinen]

A kind of warning: I'm EXTREMELY hostile, as well as very well versed, to the genre of "computer adventure" as I call it (I refuse to call them rpgs). I've played them all (both western and eastern), and hate the genre with a passion born of being very much in the target marketing segment. I hate the paper-thin plots, the bad amateur dialogue, the passive play, the constant random monster battles... they're all designed like a four-year old were the captain of the whole industry. I must be an idiot for letting them seduce me again and again, when I always see through the exercise and throw the game away in disgust. However, I do know a bit about the genre, so perhaps I can say something useful. I don't warn for PC reasons or to be cute, though: I may say something that is very cynical and offensive of your convinctions concerning the genre.

The original sin: In my experience the sin behind the evil is a) vague, b) general, c) veiled in mystery. In other words, nothing about it is said for a long long time in the plot, and when it's revealed, it's some homely moral dictum turned into abstract metaphysics nobody can understand or care about. Because this is so, I suggest that you'll get better color by going with a pre-written sin: write a pretty vague and genre-respectful evil force, name it "Blacksinwyne" or something, and make that your default "setting". It won't affect actual play one whit, and makes it easier to relate to the game. Same with magic.

Symbols: you'll want to read the Humble Mythologies design threads, as well as my IGC: Fantasy game Battle of Frozen Waste. Other than that, your list doesn't include terrain/climate, yet. It's a central symbol in CRPGs, especially Japanese ones.

Fall-out and Hope: The thing you seem to be missing is that negative things in the genre always happen globally or out of the heroes' reach, while positive things always happen locally to the heroes themselves. Nothing positive ever happens globally, really. So spending Hope should be very much about character revelation and development, wherein the heroes find out that they are destined to save the world. See the Moment of Transformation, of course.

End-game: What you have here supports a 1-5 sessions at most, as I see it. What you need to do is to layer on mechanics of base exploration to enforce the idea of world creation and to give the game the necessary mechanical depth to hold interest. Otherwise there's simply not enough mechanical permutations for the game to run long and hold interest.

How well it emulates the genre: to me the ruling elements of the CRPG genre are the pointless random battles, the character optimization and the badly-written, endless dialogues. While emulating these would be interesting, I don't think you're going there. I suggest that basic post-tolkienist fantasy literature, something like David Eddings, does the same literary memes you're looking for, but won't have all that other baggage. Consider switching the color elements over, or expressing the CRPG aesthetics through the additional mechanics I recommend above. A CRPG spin-off needs Firaga spells and +13 magic swords, I think.

That's for starters. Let's get a dialogue going, and see where you want to take this. Even if you write about your goals in the PDF, they were left pretty vague to me.

[Graham W]

I'm not quite that hostile. Actually, I'm a great fan of the Final Fantasy games.

Let's see. I like the idea of Sin. Very Final Fantasy.

One point is that many of the Final Fantasy games start in a very everyday setting. It's only gradually that the characters realise the huge weight of fate on their shoulders, how they have a special destiny, etc, etc.

So, in a sense, I'd prefer the group didn't start by defining the Sin. I'd rather they gradually discovered it through their adventures.

I like the idea of the Moment of Transformation and, personally, I think it's important that it's not defined too rigidly. I think the player (or the player group as a whole) will instinctively realise when it happens and what event triggers it. I do like the idea that the moment of transformation occurs when someone "moves beyond their past".

I must be honest and admit that, after a couple of glasses of wine, I didn't understand Fallout, Hope or Debt. I figure that if I don't understand it after a couple of glasses of wine, an average convention-exhausted gamer won't get it either.

Good luck with it, anyway.

Graham

[Bankuei]

Hi,

My biggest concern would be being able to establish worthwhile conflict over long term play.  Console rpgs eat up 40-80 hours because 99% of that is eaten up in leveling up or doing mini-games, while the actual interesting plot points ("Girlfriend dies", "Find out dad is a monster", etc) are very rare.  And, when you get focused Nar play, a lot of chuff time evaporates. 

For most Nar games that are designed with long term play, usually they hit multiple issues and conflicts for each character, so perhaps giving each character multiple issues to deal with before hitting their Moment of Transformation might work well.  Also, you might want to consider the pacing of MoTs, simply because it might not be so fun to hit your MoT halfway through the campaign and be forced to be a sideline character for the rest of it.  Console games do that mostly because a single player will always be engaged in the story, through one character or another.

And finally, are you going to include some form of power-fulfillment mechanics?  Even as secondary mechanics, they tend to hold people's attention over long term play, as players feverish work to get "the next power, the next feat" in the list.  My own experience was running and playing Zodiac, which was a gamist freebie based on the FF games... my friends and I did a whole weekend marathon because the power up-reward cycle was so addictive.

Chris

[Filip Luszczyk]

Actually, I don't see the point in playing for 40-80 hours. I think about 5 sessions should be more than satisfactory (at least for me, of course). It would be good idea to make expected play time scalable (e.g. by setting the exact amount of Fallout/Hope at witch End Game begins independently for each series - or something like that).

As for Fallout/Hope, I think it could be done another way. I don't see a reason, why players succeding in conflicts should bring Fallout to the world at large (even in purely metagame way). In console RPG's player's success ususally gets him one step toward defeating the threat to the universe (e.g. you acquire another piece of the great artifact needed to destroy the final evil).

I figure that critically failed conflicts should result in automatic Fallout, but after each failed conflict players should have option to lessen the consequences of a failure by accepting some amount of Fallout. Falloud could be "discharged" locally - and it would make things more complicated for the party for the rest of the session. Alternatively, it could be accumulated towards the "world-scale" Fallout - and it would "discharge" mainly at the end of an episode, in a world-shaking way.

Hope could be one of possible outcomes of winning in a conflict, and one possible outcome of a failed conflict would be to lose some Hope (instead of accumulating the whole amount of Fallout). It could also be possible to negate a bit of Fallout with Hope expenditure and to increase Hope by willingly accepting Fallout.

E.g. party clears a dungeon to acquire a piece of Elemental Crystal needed to save the world. They succed in the conflict - they get some points of Hope. If they fail, they must face some personal consequences. Consequences may be lessened by willingly accepting some amount of Fallout (for example, they get the Crystal, but at the cost of setting free some terrible monsters, which start to rapage the countryside, hampering player's way for the rest of the episode). If they don't "discharge" fallout locally, it will accumulate - e.g. after taking Crystal from it's shrine earth starts to rot at the end of the episode, spawning armies of zombies. Crushing failure in conflict could mean that they acquire Crystal, but it is immediately taken by their evil nemesis.

[Shreyas Sampat]

First, important design thought: Those Dials at the beginning can do some real work for you, by serving as a way to generate symbol sets for the setting, and also to define their frequency-of-use; this gives you a way to lay out your setting choices in a structured manner at the beginning of the game, and reinforce those choices mechanically as the game continues; you could even have dial-turning as a mechanical tool which manages the accessibility of Symbols.

Naturally, this means that you really need to have strong carrot/stick methods relating to the use of Symbols.

Second, strong aesthetic reaction: Celtic bad. Ellipses in title bad. All else awesome.

[David Bapst]

Interesting. I ended up trying to design a console RPG game last spring, only to decide halfway through that I could go Narr or Gam... and I went Gam. I was thinking along some of the same lines... that's probably a good thing, that means this stuff is clear interpretations of the material (I also saw the importance of connections in CRPG stories). I have to say you've already done far better than I did.

Anyway:

1) Seems to fit pretty well. I'm wondering if player characters might need more definition...

2) Hrm. I think tragedy is your vaguest and weakest spot... I'm uncertain how it will enforced and enabled as you describe it.

Other stuff:
You wonder if players should be able to object to other player's use of authority (symbols, fallout, etc). I have to wonder if the dials couldn't just be used as the restriction on that.

I found a common element of story that existed in most of the "main" characters in CRPGs that I'm not sure you considered. In many of them, the character believes themselves to be normal or mostly normal in the beginning, and this idea gets shattered during the game. It's actually the easiest way to tell the difference from the main character and the sideline characters. One is dealing with self-identity and a convulted past, the other just has to deal with more "normal" issues. (This doesn't hold true for all... but it becomes more and more appearant with more later-generation CRPG games.) If people play this as they play CRPGs, then you'll likely see many of them wanting to deal with how their character's identity relates to the Sin.

Ya know what? I really like Hope and Fallout. Very nice ideas there. I see a thread there, where you're trying to have a mysterious backstory develop organically. That's always been one of my main obsessions with anime/CRPGs is how we know nothing, and the story of what happened/is happening develops over time. I'm curious if you want to pursue that line of thinking more or not; it could detract other parts of the game.

(Idea: Instead of defining the sin at the beginning of the game, what if symbols relating to the sin were defined and could thus be brought up as the game goes on to bring the sin more and more into play?)

That's about all I can think of right now. Will be watching this project closely!
-Dave

[timfire]

So much to respond to...

Symbols:... Other than that, your list doesn't include terrain/climate, yet. It's a central symbol in CRPGs, especially Japanese ones.

That's interesting, I've never thought about the role of terrain & climate before. Would you mind elaborating, with examples from games, maybe?

Fall-out and Hope: The thing you seem to be missing is that negative things in the genre always happen globally or out of the heroes' reach, while positive things always happen locally to the heroes themselves. Nothing positive ever happens globally, really.

That's also an interesting observation, I'll have to think about that.
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Let's see. I like the idea of Sin. Very Final Fantasy.

One point is that many of the Final Fantasy games start in a very everyday setting. It's only gradually that the characters realise the huge weight of fate on their shoulders, how they have a special destiny, etc, etc.

So, in a sense, I'd prefer the group didn't start by defining the Sin. I'd rather they gradually discovered it through their adventures.

Let me use an example of what I was thinking.... FF6. From the very beginning of the game you (the player) know that there was a "War of the Magi" several hundreds years before that destroyed the use of magic. That would be the setting's "Sin". Only later do you find out all the stuff about Espers & how----umm, what's-his-name wants to use them to destroy the world. In my game (theorectically), that plot would have developed in play as a consequence of negative Fallout.
______________________________

My biggest concern would be being able to establish worthwhile conflict over long term play. Console rpgs eat up 40-80 hours because 99% of that is eaten up in leveling up or doing mini-games, while the actual interesting plot points ("Girlfriend dies", "Find out dad is a monster", etc) are very rare.

That's a good point. I'll have to wait until some playtesting to see how the length of the game works out. I do think there's a little bit more there some of you seem to think there is. The game does provide for both external setting-based issues (Fallout) and personal issues (Connections). I think that's good for at least 5-10 sessions. But I'm not sure if it will last 15-20 sessions. I'll have to wait until some playtesting to see how it goes.

Also, you might want to consider the pacing of MoTs, simply because it might not be so fun to hit your MoT halfway through the campaign and be forced to be a sideline character for the rest of it. Console games do that mostly because a single player will always be engaged in the story, through one character or another.

I haven't develop the mechanism for acquiring/developing Connections yet, and I think that will influence the pace and flow of a character's story. But I will keep that in mind.

And finally, are you going to include some form of power-fulfillment mechanics?

No, because admittedly I'm just not interested in that. But also, that would diminish the neccessity for using Connections, which I want to bve a big deal.
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Actually, I don't see the point in playing for 40-80 hours.

That's purely an idealistic thing, a gimick that's connected to the video games. I'll see how it plays out in the real world.

As for Fallout/Hope, I think it could be done another way.

I have two reasons for doing that. The first is thematic. I want want broken characters, who want to do good but can't.

The second is theorectical. Here we go---Everyone likes adversity. G, N, or S we all like adversity. In addition, to make a nice satisfying game-/ story- arc, we need a buildup of adversity. Thus, if the players get rewarded for success by things getting easier, that's kinda backwards, isn't it? Things should get harder when the players succeed, shouldn't they? I think I might start a Theory thread about... [here].
___________________________

I found a common element of story that existed in most of the "main" characters in CRPGs that I'm not sure you considered. In many of them, the character believes themselves to be normal or mostly normal in the beginning, and this idea gets shattered during the game. It's actually the easiest way to tell the difference from the main character and the sideline characters. One is dealing with self-identity and a convulted past, the other just has to deal with more "normal" issues. (This doesn't hold true for all... but it becomes more and more appearant with more later-generation CRPG games.) If people play this as they play CRPGs, then you'll likely see many of them wanting to deal with how their character's identity relates to the Sin.

I definitely thought about the whole self-discovery-thing. I wasn't sure the best way to support this. My hope was that making Connections would be played out as revelatory moments for the characters. That's one of the reasons I thought characters should be created very vaguely. Then players would be forced to "discover" the chracter through play.

Ya know what? I really like Hope and Fallout. Very nice ideas there. I see a thread there, where you're trying to have a mysterious backstory develop organically. That's always been one of my main obsessions with anime/CRPGs is how we know nothing, and the story of what happened/is happening develops over time. I'm curious if you want to pursue that line of thinking more or not; it could detract other parts of the game.

Umm, sure. That was something I was hoping would happen. Do you have additional thoughts on the subject? (I should finish reading my copy of Conspiracy of Shadows and see what Keith has to say about devloping conspiracies.)

_____________________

Thanks everyone, I'm still mulling over some of the comments.

[Christoph Boeckle]

Hello there.

Instead of rambling about how "my project" is extremely similar to yours and pollute this thread, I suggest you send me an e-mail if you want to know more about it. Maybe we can reach some common ground to work around a few ideas. ;-)

[Colin Fredericks]

If you like, I can send you a copy of my current version of Console, to steal ideas and mechanics from. It may be a bit more simulationist than you're looking for, but hopefully it can provide some inspiration. Just send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll send you a comp copy.

--Colin Fredericks

[daMoose_Neo]

I'm tackling some CRPG to TableTop issues with a side-line d20 MMO supplement, so if you want to chat a bit drop a PM.

I wanted to chime in on something that drives a lot of CRPG play, especially the early Final Fantasy stories: if you were to read a transcript of play as though it were a novel, the heroes never fail. One may fall, become temporarily wounded, etc. but failure is simply not an option to proceed. Thus, suggesting earlier that "They get the crystal, but..." I don't think meshes well with the console RPG world and CRPG player's mindset. "What do you mean that happened? Last time we got this crystal we were free and clear! Now you're telling me something bad just happened?!" This makes sense as a TTRPG player, but console gamers who may run through a scenario more than once, or a CRPG GM who is reading this for the first time says "Wait, I have to figure out what happens if this, this or that happens? Final Fantasy doesn't do that...", may be put off.
Instead, part of what makes those side quests so much fun is that they can give you more control of the endgame. Snagging a hidden character, unlocking a specific item, solving a puzzle, collecting all of the espers, etc. These actions unlock the alternate endings, new tactical options, etc.
The things that must be done simply must be done, but the mini-quests are what give the players the control we look for as TTRPG players. Rather than consider that "fluff", you might want a second look at incorperating those (and even making up our own! ^_^)

[David Bapst]

Nate-
Hrm. Counter-opinion?
I think CRPG characters fail all the time... but it's the same difference between failing at a task and failing at a conflict. Other things beyond their control or outside of their knowledge occur, changing their success. FF4 is an example of this. "We got the crystal, but then Kain went evil and stole it!", "The old sage cast Meteo only to die!", "We beat Golbez up, but his hand still snatched the crystal away!"
They win in the end. Normally.
If anything, the hardest problem will be getting them to accept the idea of their failures not being set (or that any of the story isn't set). There'd probably be other issues relating to choosing success vs failure, but Hope/Fallout takes care of that.

Don't have much to respond to from your reply, Tim. I don't have any more ideas, all I can say is that I hope you succeed.
-Dave

[daMoose_Neo]

David - In all of those scenarios I've personally encountered, however, they were scripted. No matter what you did, those events occur. Some RPGs veer a little from that, but for the most part these console titles don't deviate.
Now, it depends on the definition of success. If it means completing the overall objective of say saving the world, yes the heroes will fail when Kefka (FF6) destroys the world. They will always fail. But, players surviving to that point (or having the sheer determination to make it through despite a dozen total party kills and game overs) is rewarded by the interesting plot development. According to a transcript though, those TPKs never would have happened- the heroes simply set out from the inn (Save Point) and heroically slew the monster with one attack (Nevermind the fact you were killed 20 times and had to level up another 10 times just to survive the first attack).
CRPG characters definetly benefit from OOC knowledge, as you won't approach the same battle the same way 20 times, because thats what the character would do. You'd approach it 20 different ways because last time you got your azz handed to you.

[sirogit]

Wow! Sign me up for play testing.

I'd suggest some rules for mcguffins, espicially linked to how magic works, as it was pretty important part of quite a few CRPGS.

I wasn't completely sure on what sort of end-game you're talking about. I think that playing past the apocalypse should be encouraged if not mandated.

Here's a suggestion for another tragedy: Familial strife: Your closest relatives just don't accept your ways and neither of you want a part of the other, usually because they're neo-con pricks that just don't get it and realize the weird royalty is a monster.

[David Bapst]

David - In all of those scenarios I've personally encountered, however, they were scripted. No matter what you did, those events occur. Some RPGs veer a little from that, but for the most part these console titles don't deviate.
Now, it depends on the definition of success. If it means completing the overall objective of say saving the world, yes the heroes will fail when Kefka (FF6) destroys the world. They will always fail. But, players surviving to that point (or having the sheer determination to make it through despite a dozen total party kills and game overs) is rewarded by the interesting plot development. According to a transcript though, those TPKs never would have happened- the heroes simply set out from the inn (Save Point) and heroically slew the monster with one attack (Nevermind the fact you were killed 20 times and had to level up another 10 times just to survive the first attack).
CRPG characters definetly benefit from OOC knowledge, as you won't approach the same battle the same way 20 times, because thats what the character would do. You'd approach it 20 different ways because last time you got your azz handed to you.

See, I understand that. But "winning battles for the purpose of unlocking story" isn't an option for a Narr game. I understand what your thinking as far as copying the "real" system that RPG players use for enjoyment. But it's like PTA or Soap... all based on prescripted stories, and the people who play those games manage to still apply them to a tabletop RPG form. Just cause the failures are prescripted doesn't mean the players will find failure as jarring.

In anything, the fact I'm willing to spend six hours fighting random monsters to kill a boss in order to get the enjoyment of seeing the characters utterly fail... well, that sounds like a good thing, eh? Failure will be just as alluring as success in some ways.