[Ratpack] Ronnies feedback

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Finally! The first round of the Ronnies had to end during the most frantic two weeks of my year so far. I have tons of notes on every game, but not finding the time for typing them up.

Anyway, here's one game to talk about: Ratpack, by Jared A. Sorensen. I put it into the "Runners-up" category along with some obscure crinkum-crankum about reward systems and other jargon. Maybe I can make that clearer here. I'll start with rendering my notes into, if not deathless prose, at least grammatical sentences.

1. "Suburb" begins as a strong central concept on the first page, along with cool stuff like the American Dream and whether "rats like us" have a shot at it. All of which vanishes for the rest of the game. Turf wars with rival rats and encounters with cats don't seem any different from what the rats had to deal with back in the city - the game needs suburban conflict, stuff the rats don't know about and which offer new kinds of ideals. Back in the hood, it was about respect and ruthlessness; here, it's about other stuff - or is it the same stuff under a new guise? That sort of thing.

For instance, I don't see the dentist-office scenario as being particularly suburban in any non-urban way. On a larger scale, there's no reward to play besides merely having your rat survive, unless you count "getting your way" in multiple resolutions. There ain't no "suburb" there, either - and given the awesome Color text which begins the game, there ought to be. Success in this game should mean finding or making headway in achieving the American Dream.

2. Great group-resolution system, which is basically a debate (or bully) session. The fun thing is that you have a "type" which gives you the ability to debate well for your chosen field (tough-guy, smart-guy, etc), but you don't have to follow it and can throw in a lesser die to support something that seems like the best plan. It has a great Watership Down vibe, in terms of stuff like "what is leadership" and so on. Notice that none of the personality-types are automatically considered best or most moral or effective, so that would have to come out during play - "who's Hazel."

I think the "Stinker" role is excellent and necessary; the Stinker cannot propose a plan but can only support another's, kind of a built-in grotty swing vote bloc.

Anyway, one thing that would have to be absolutely clear is that, once a plan has won a debate, and once the current boss-guy is chosen, all the players have to stick with it.

The winner of an Argument Roll (the Rat King*) gets to lead the ratpack in carrying out the course of action
(that rat's player tells the Big Cheese how the ratpack acts as a group). Individual die rolls are then made by the
players as directed by the Rat King.

Are the rest of the players simply supposed to roll as directed? I'm not sure how well that'll fly in play - if there's no reason to obey the plan once it's launched and in action, then the whole system falls apart.

A minor criticism: the personality types are spot-on, but the Color differences generated by the rat origins (wharf, lab, etc) are full of little bonuses, exactly the kind of thing that drives me crazy in play because we always forget them right when they'd make the most difference. Same kind of stuff that bugs me about the full version of The Dying Earth - above and beyond the basic and straightforward pool-expenditure and pool-refresh rules (and the Trumping), you have a million dinky versions associated with every freaking skill and detail.

3. A straightforward and cool game needs a straightforward and cool setting and tone. (Lacuna does qualify. I can't wait to post about our actual play when I finally get around to it.) Ratpack offers a couple of tones or styles, Toon and Grim. For my money? Pick Toon and go with it, develop it further, get the whole suburban-thing linked to it.

That leads me to consider as well that the damage rules for Toon style are boring, and that decreasing the rattributes should be retained. All you have to do is describe the effects appropriately, just as you do for being "killed."

4. Finally, a note about presentation - it's full of redundancy, in describing character personalities, through the resolution system, and onto the character sheets. A lotta space and effort that could have been about suburban conflicts.

My conclusion from my notes is that my current reason to play, as written, would be "group resolution mechanic as a curiosity," not out of enthusiasm. Put in that American Dream stuff, especially at the level of scenario effects that change the characters, clarify some resolution/speaking stuff, and make it all Toon? Hell yes, I'd play it in a heartbeat.

Questions, comments, thoughts? I hope I was able to clarify some of the gibberish from the Results thread here too.

Jared, whaddaya think?

Oh yeah - you know the "artifact" stuff that Keith has been writing about on his blog, in reference to your production of the Farm, and his Untitled submission to the Ronnies? If you develop Ratpack, it'd be a great candidate for that approach - all ratty, with the Suburbs as a physical ideal that you could actually experience physically through the game. Pop-up pages, or something like that ... I had a pop-up book version of the Wizard of Oz as a kid, and I still remember how much I loved the Emerald City page.

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

1. "Suburb" begins as a strong central concept on the first page, along with cool stuff like the American Dream and whether "rats like us" have a shot at it. All of which vanishes for the rest of the game. Turf wars with rival rats and encounters with cats don't seem any different from what the rats had to deal with back in the city - the game needs suburban conflict, stuff the rats don't know about and which offer new kinds of ideals. Back in the hood, it was about respect and ruthlessness; here, it's about other stuff - or is it the same stuff under a new guise? That sort of thing.

It's funny, I was going to excise the first bits out of the game but then I said, "Ah, fuck it. Ron'll probably latch onto it." I just didn't care to delve into any kind of narrativist claptrap. If I were to do that, it'd be "My Blue Heaven: the RPG" (with or without anthropomorphic rats).

2. Great group-resolution system, which is basically a debate (or bully) session. The fun thing is that you have a "type" which gives you the ability to debate well for your chosen field (tough-guy, smart-guy, etc), but you don't have to follow it and can throw in a lesser die to support something that seems like the best plan. It has a great Watership Down vibe, in terms of stuff like "what is leadership" and so on. Notice that none of the personality-types are automatically considered best or most moral or effective, so that would have to come out during play - "who's Hazel."

I think the "Stinker" role is excellent and necessary; the Stinker cannot propose a plan but can only support another's, kind of a built-in grotty swing vote bloc.

Anyway, one thing that would have to be absolutely clear is that, once a plan has won a debate, and once the current boss-guy is chosen, all the players have to stick with it.

Yeah. This argument mechanic was the first thing I came up with -- too bad it doesn't mesh that well with the rest of the game.

A minor criticism: the personality types are spot-on, but the Color differences generated by the rat origins (wharf, lab, etc) are full of little bonuses, exactly the kind of thing that drives me crazy in play because we always forget them right when they'd make the most difference. Same kind of stuff that bugs me about the full version of The Dying Earth - above and beyond the basic and straightforward pool-expenditure and pool-refresh rules (and the Trumping), you have a million dinky versions associated with every freaking skill and detail.

Choice = fun, Professor Edwards. Also, it pads the page count.

It's funny. My first thought after I heard the word list was Suburban Hatred and it dealt with a Judge Dredd/Snow Crash-esque concept of burbclaves...kinda like the Red State vs. Blue State concept but taken to the extreme. But it was too boring. I did the Ratpack logo and I liked it so I went with that. I would give the game a solid B. Were I to do a re-write, ah, I wouldn't. It's "good enough" to go on my pile of quickie games.

My criticism of the contest is only that I thought the word list was really bland and seemed intentionally chosen to generate examples of Edwardian game design (ie: Trollbabe, MLwM and DitV) -- come on, "suburb," "girlfriend" and "hatred"? Rat was an interesting addition but it irks me that most of the entries used it metaphorically. I think that's a cop out. Man, I could go on but I'll just let it lie.

Untitled was the best entry (I didn't read it) and Black Widows was my favorite of the bunch. I wanted to like that Vendetta game a whole helluva lot but it needed a good shot in the arm. The noirish game (by Jonas someone?) I can't remember the name of was the other one I gave more than a glance through. Overall, the exercise was a fun diversion from Darkpages and I got to make a little book that I have laying on my desk right now. Sweet.

Also; FIRST! SUCKERS!

[Keith Senkowski]

A pop-up book would be wicked cool to the point of me wanting to make one now (got to dig out my paper design books now).  I myself have fond memories of a Empire Strikes Back one I had as a young-n.  It neat moving parts and the Millennium Falcon on a string.  You could have scurrying rats on every page, but you'd probably have to drop the page count down just for practicle reasons.

Keith

[tygertyger]

Ah, yes, Ratpack.  This was one of the ones that I read, said, "My group would never play this," and downloaded it anyway because of that interesting "argument" resolution system.

Something like this applies to several of the submissions, in fact; I found them too limited in scope, found most of the game mechanics too unappealing or simply wasn't interested in playing in the setting, but somewhere in all that I saw a mechanic that had fascinating possibilities.  Don't be surprised if one or more of these ideas crops up in a future 24-hour rpg that I write.

[Gregor Hutton]

I think I found a lot of the suburban entries were more generally urban than suburban. Maybe there could have been a sharper focus on suburbia for Ratpack?

I liked the role of the Stinker too, and for sure I know a lot of gamers who would revel in that role. I also liked the literal use of rats and I'm a bit of a sucker for puns so "rattributes" worked for me.

[Larry L.]

My criticism of the contest is

Damn you Sorensen, you made me laugh loudly in the office.

I, also, cannot wait to see who has the cojones to publish the first RPG in pop-up book form.