[Sorc Combat]

[James_Nostack]

This is another thread in the long-running, "James is an idiot who keeps getting flummoxed by combat in Sorcerer" series.  In today's episode, he wonders about sucking up the hit in a fight.  I have two questions.

SCENARIO ONE
Here's Azathoth the Mighty!  He's in a fight against, like, a hundred dudes.  Azathoth's player rolls some dice, and beats absolutely all of them in initiative.  Azathoth gets to act first in that round of combat, and then gets to roll defense against each of 100 attacks against him later that round.

But let's say it's the exact opposite situation: Azathoth the Mighty is also Azathoth the Incredibly Slow, and he acts dead last in the round.  Can he perpetually "suck up the hit" against each of his 100 assailants, so that he can perform his intended action?

(I would think that by symmetry the answer is yes, but I'm not sure.)

SCENARIO TWO
Assumes that you can "suck up the hit" against multiple opponents!
Okay, here's Azathoth the Incredibly Slow again.  He's acting last in the round, and is dead set on performing his intention, so he always chooses to "suck up the hit." 

Against Thug 1, Azathoth rolls 1 die.  Azathoth loses, and suffers (let's say) 2 penalties.  But what happens against Thug 2, who rolled his attack dice way back at the start of the round?

* Option 1 - Immobilization.  Azathoth has no dice to roll in his defense against Thug 2.  Thug 2 wins with Total Victory.  (This can't be right, but I'm including it because I've been wrong before.)

* Option 2 - Balance the Equation.  Azathoth would roll 1 dice to "suck up the hit" but has been penalized to 0 or below.  So, Azathoth rolls 1 die.  And Thug 2's player now rolls an extra die to add onto his attack total, the rest of which was rolled earlier in the round.  (This can't be right either.)

* Option 3 - Be a Man!  Even though Azathoth's Stamina is higher than 3, he has to do the "Sorcerer pushing past the pain" thing, by rolling unpenalized Will vs. dice-he-wishes-to-use.  It's not clear what happens if he fails and therefore cannot roll any dice.  (This can't be right either.)

* Option 4 - Pass the Buck.  Azathoth rolls 1 dice as usual.  Any penalties from Thug 1 (or from Thug 2 for that matter) get postponed until Azathoth gets a chance to perform his intention,


* Option 2 -

[James_Nostack]

Damn it, I wanted to simplify SCENARIO TWO enormously, when I accidentally hit post while editing the subject line.  This "no editing" policy is kind of frustrating.

Anyway---

SCENARIO TWO, REVISED
Hey, things are much simpler conceptually!

You've got Azathoth the Sorta Slow, fighting two dudes.  First dude inflicts damage on Azathoth greater than A's Stamina.

How does he defend against Thug 2's attack?  Whether he sucks it up, or tries to roll Stamina to defend, he's still facing greater penalties than he has dice.  If he tries to power through the pain using a Will vs. (desired dice) roll, he might end up not getting any dice, right?

[Valamir]

Yeah, you're making it way harder than it is.

The simple answer to scenario 1 is "yes" but of course rolling 1 die defenses against "100" incoming attacks probably means 'ole Az is dead long before his turn comes up...

The other concept that once you twig it will make all of your permutations vastly simpler is that Penalty Dice to party 1 can be realized by giving Bonus Dice to party 2.


In your simplified second scenario Az is going last.  Thug 1 attacks him, he sucks it up, he takes a 2 die penalty as a result.  Now Az has to defend against Thug 2.  Thug 2's dice are already sitting there on the table.  Az will be sucking it up again and rolls 1 die.  BUT Az has that pesky 2 die penalty to confront.  So Thug 2 picks up 2 extra dice, rolls 'em and adds them to the pile of dice he already has sitting there on the table.  If those dice roll high they could well be worth an extra success or two.  If they roll low they might not do squat.  Either way the 2 die penalty takes effect immediately for the next roll Az is involved with.

You can see how this woud apply to your scenario 1 above.  Those lasting penalties would start accumulating until Thug #53 is rolling his 6 dice plus the 42 Penalty Dice Az is now suffering from, etc.

[James_Nostack]

Okay - I was thinking that because the attack dice were already rolled, you couldn't suddenly add more dice to them later in the round. 

I think Sorcerer is an interesting game, but the entire section on Combat does my head in.  If there's ever another printing, I hope that there will be at least one or two examples for each major contingency.  In the combat chapter there's an example involving Bobby, his demon Fragg, and five thugs--Fragg suffers a penalty dice which never shows up anywhere.  Since it's practically the only example of that phase of the game, and doesn't explain weird fiddly stuff that can happen, it bolluxed me up.

[Nev the Deranged]

Here's the thing about Sorcerer.

It doesn't have any special capital-C Combat rules.

It just has conflict resolution rules, and combat happens to be one kind of conflict it can resolve.

But anyway, I also had a lot of trouble with this, and gave Ron many headaches regarding it before finally, after, literally, a year or so, coming to grips with it.

The thread in which this takes place is here: .... ok, I spent a bunch of time searching for it and realized that not only was it going to take forever to hunt down, but that I distilled all of it into the Quick-Reference guide I put together anyway.

So, if you want a copy of that, I'll happily send it. Or one of the many folks who kindly linked to it from their sites could post one of those links here.

[ScottM]

Here's the link to Dave's quick reference. Hope you find it handy.

Scott

[Nev the Deranged]

Thanks.

Hm... apparently I forgot to clip my notes to myself off the end before sending that out... d'oh.

Anyway, about midway down is the Conflict Resolution section, with an example that took weeks, IIRC, to boil down to correctness, with the help of several folks. I hope you find it helpful.

[James_Nostack]

Ha ha, thanks for that link!  I'm in the middle of doing something similar, and it's funny to realize someone has beaten me to it.

[Nev the Deranged]

There are a couple other people doing similar stuff, in various stages of completion, I think. The Sorcerer Wiki page compiles most of what's been done so far, including mine. I don't have the link to that either but if you google for Sorcerer Wiki you'll find it. Lots of helpful stuff there. And I'm sure they'd be happy to add whatever you put together as well, if you don't have a place to host it.

[Lisa Padol]

Um, let's say Azthoth the Incredibly Slow is attacked by 3 guys. He decides to abort his action to defend. Does he get a full defense against all 3? Apologies if this is obvious, but I've completely lost track.

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Lisa,

Roll the full defense as if it were an attack. In other words, everyone rolls.

If Azathoth beats the others, then what that means is that the show's over. All three attacks fail.

Let's say he beats two, but one guy rolls better. His attack comes in first - Azathoth may now abort his full defense and roll full dice to defend against this attack. Since his defense was aborted, he now gets full dice to defend against the other two, one at a time, in order.

Working?

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

Working?

Uh... I think. Lemme chew on this a bit.

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Let me clarify just a bit more.

In the second case, Azathoth may alternately decide to defend against the faster attacker with a single die, reserving his excellent initial roll to automatically stifle the two other incoming attacks.

This is an excellent option if that faster attack is low on dice and only has one high value.

For those of you who are paying attention, you will realize that full defense is often the skilled fighter's first option, as it permits him, with a decent roll and good narration, to roll bonuses from that success into wicked-nasty attacks from advantageous positions in the next exchange.

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

So, if I declare a full defence for my character, he's defending against one person / one attack / one thing. If something else tries to bite him first, if I don't want him to suck it up, I say, "I'm aborting the full defense and defending against this new attack." I now roll Stamina in dice against both the first incoming attack and the one I'd planned to use full defense against. Is this correct, or have I got a wire crossed in my brain?

-Lisa

[jburneko]

Lisa,

Ron can verify this but I'm pretty certain I have this right.

Full Defense does not have a target.  You are simply defending yourself from any all attacks.  So let's say it's you against five other opponents and you choose "Full Defense"

You roll.

Outcome 1:

You go first!  Great, you've fended off all five attacks.  No aborting or redirecting on the enemies part.  You simply fend them off.

Outcome 2:  You go second or anywhere else in the sequence.

Option A: You can abort and roll full stamina against each of the five attacks one at a time.

Option B: You can roll 1 die against each attack before your defense and then automatically fend off the attacks that come after your action because that's when your "Full Defense" kicks in.

Does that help?

Jesse