[publishing] Getting Art

[Kynn]

I have no pictures in my Wandering Monsters High School.

Ideally there should be pictures.

How do you go about finding artists, and how much money will you likely be out?  I have pretty close to zero money to invest in this right now, and I certainly don't want to spend hundreds on pictures if I don't know for sure I'll be able to make money off the game.

So what's the best approach?  Should I find artists willing to work for free or cheap?  Or for a percentage of the sales or something?   How much are the typical rates and/or percentages?

I'm trying to build a budget.

I assume this question has been asked before many times.  If so, feel free to just point me to FAQs, articles, or threads on the topic. Thanks!

--Kynn

[Andrew Morris]

Kynn, there are several ways to get the art you are looking for.

First, you could just pay an artist. Prices for that could range all over the place -- you'll just have to ask individual artists and find out what they're charging. You can also post in the Connections forum here or similar sites on the internet, letting potential illustrators know you can't afford much, but to contact you with the details.

Second, you could use royalty-free images, like old woodcuts.

Third, you can ask around your group of friends and find someone who's talented and willing to do your illustrations as a favor, or simply because they get a kick out of their art being used in a game.

As to finding previous discussions, yes, there are tons. You can find them quickly enough by using the search function. They'll have more information on prices and payment structures and such.

[ejh]

Also -- do not rule out drawing your own stuff.

Most people way underestimate their own artistic abilities, IMHO, and doing your own art for a game sidesteps the extremely difficult issue of trying to communicate your particular vision to an artist.

I really enjoyed doing art for the new Dogs of the Vineyard, but despite the fact that I've been drawing a lot longer and a lot more than Vincent, Vincent's work kicks mine's ass, and I'm not ashamed of that.  It kicks it because it is *Vincent's own game* and he could work out of the same groove, the same vibe, the same inspiration, that brought forth the game itself.  There is power there.

Give yourself a chance to try making at least some of your own stuff.  You're an indie RPG designer.  You dare try yourself what many people think is best left to professionals.  Well, apply that to the illustration too.  You never know what you're going to come up with until you try.

And even in the worst case scenario, if you find your efforts totally unacceptable, and you decide you do want to have someone else do art for you, your own work will serve as an invaluable guide to what you're looking for to whatever artist you do end up with. :)

[Adam Dray]

I have two artists, Lee Cerolis and Nathan Bolt, doing free work for me. They're very good but want to break into the gaming scene and want their stuff to be seen, so they're willing to take a chance on me. I'm offering them each a full page ad in the back, a la what Kirt did in Unsung.

I posted some requests on DeviantArt.com and here and there. I created a web page for my RPG in development and dedicated a page to a "Call for Artists" with details about what I was seeking. Both Lee and Nate found me. Nate's a Forge guy, too.

[Nathan P.]

It's not appropriate for all games, but all of the interior art for Timestream is from the public domain site morgueFile.com. I emailed each photographer and asked for contact info (email & website), which I put in the book. I really like how it looks, though, again, its not going to work for every game. It may be worth checking out, though.

[Michael S. Miller]

Don't forget www.clipart.com. You can find images before you subscribe, then $16 will allow you a week to download them.

[Keith Senkowski]

Kynn,

If you got some artistic talent, I so go and do it yourself.  If not another location (besides what folks have already mentioned) for good art is places like Dover Publishing.  They sell the shit by the CD-ROM and have a large catalog.  Also check out this site.  It has a list of sites with public domain (or mostly public domain) art.

Keith

[Kynn]

Also -- do not rule out drawing your own stuff.
Give yourself a chance to try making at least some of your own stuff.

Oh, I've tried that...my art skills are horribly horribly bad.

But thank you for the advice, and thank you to everyone else who gave advice too!

[Erskin]

No one seems to have mentioned it yet, but some artists (not many) are also willing to work for a percentage of profits. Another no-money-up-front option is to agree on a price to pay for th art, but also have the payment come only from the profits. I.e. you pay nothing up front, but all money made from sales goes to the artist until the agreed upon rate is paid off.

As a side note, "conventional wisdom", for what it's worth, says spend a little more on the cover than the interior art.

[daMoose_Neo]

For the most part, as an 'indie' operation, "pay by percents" is just too much work. If we were talking something like a CCG where you needed 300 pieces, that may be a way to go: keeps you from having such high initial art costs, lets you get the work you need.
Your average RPG however? You usually won't need THAT much art. Clip art packs exist all over RPGNow for the express purpose of using in published works, a few artists will sell second rights to work for a much lower rate than an original commissioned or first rights work, and a number of people know at least one person who's line art is at minimal passable- clean something of theirs up, use it for an inconsequential piece.

General rule of thumb though: you get what you pay for. Sometimes you're lucky though and get someone who just loves the concept so much they want a hand in it as well.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

For the most part, as an 'indie' operation, "pay by percents" is just too much work. If we were talking something like a CCG where you needed 300 pieces, that may be a way to go: keeps you from having such high initial art costs, lets you get the work you need.
Your average RPG however? You usually won't need THAT much art.

What? That doesn't make sense. You're paying the same amount of money, one way or the other - just because it's a percentage of sales doesn't mean it's not the same amount of money. Now, of course, it's a gamble, but creative people are used to that. If the artist believes in the project enough to invest, there should be a payment of revenues. That's how we worked on the Mountain Witch: I saw the potential of the project and put a lot of work into it that Tim could not have reasonably paid for — and I wouldn't have wanted him to. I knew if I did a good job, it would increase sales and we'd both benefit.

Of course, this only works if there's mutual respect, because the fates of the creators are tied together. So you have to have a game that someone else could see the potential in, too.

Clip art packs exist all over RPGNow for the express purpose of using in published works, a few artists will sell second rights to work for a much lower rate than an original commissioned or first rights work, and a number of people know at least one person who's line art is at minimal passable- clean something of theirs up, use it for an inconsequential piece.

... and you can really taste the savings.

Don't choose an element because it's cheap. Choose it because it's right.

General rule of thumb though: you get what you pay for. Sometimes you're lucky though and get someone who just loves the concept so much they want a hand in it as well.

If that's the case, they're not professional artists and should be taken with a grain of salt. No professional is going to sacrifice that much time for someone else's vision. Maybe your illustrator is a friend and will cut you a deal, but recognize that the illustrator, or designer, or whoever you're dealing with is sacrificing their resources for your book. It takes a lot of time to make a decent illustration. Time they could have spent making money to buy food.

Maybe your boyfriend's an illustrator and wants to support you. But he's still sacrificing something for your project.

[talysman]

For the most part, as an 'indie' operation, "pay by percents" is just too much work. If we were talking something like a CCG where you needed 300 pieces, that may be a way to go: keeps you from having such high initial art costs, lets you get the work you need.
Your average RPG however? You usually won't need THAT much art.

What? That doesn't make sense. You're paying the same amount of money, one way or the other - just because it's a percentage of sales doesn't mean it's not the same amount of money.

I thought he meant here percentage of final product. it's the way Ivan Stang pays out artists/contributors for the various SubGenius books, for example: contributors get paid based on what percentage of the total product turns out to be their stuff.

so, for example, suppose you are prepping your game for publication, and you decide you need the following:

• a cover illustration.
• distinctive bullet, header, and border art, which will be repeated throughout the book.
• interior illustrations, approximately one quarter-page size illustration every other page.

it makes sense to commission the first two as one-time fees. the bullets, headers, and borders might even be clipart. but you might decide to work the interior illustrations differently: since they take up one quarter of every other page, approximately 12.5% of the final product; artist will divide 12.5% of profits based on how much they contributed. so, Joe Amoeba contributed 30% of the illustrations and gets 30% of 12.5%.

it's possibly more of a paperwork hassle than it might be worth, but it has been done before.

me personally, I think I would lower the number of illustrations. cover, bullet/border, and one good-sized illustration for the beginning of every chapter. a graphic designer recently told me his impressions of some of the rpg books out there, and he thought that most of them are over illustrated and have the wrong kinds of illustrations, anyways. he expressed it as "it should look fun to read, not just fun to look at."

[timfire]

Sometimes you're lucky though and get someone who just loves the concept so much they want a hand in it as well.

If that's the case, they're not professional artists and should be taken with a grain of salt. No professional is going to sacrifice that much time for someone else's vision. Maybe your illustrator is a friend and will cut you a deal, but recognize that the illustrator, or designer, or whoever you're dealing with is sacrificing their resources for your book. It takes a lot of time to make a decent illustration. Time they could have spent making money to buy food.

Don't be so harsh, Joshua, that's basically what happened with W. Don Flores and The Mountain Witch. Granted, he didn't work for free, but he did it for a *whole lot* less than he deserved. There are really good people out there that are looking for a way to break into things, and just want to get a couple projects in their porfolio. True, it's never a guarrentee that it will work out spectacularly, but it's worth trying.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Don't be so harsh, Joshua, that's basically what happened with W. Don Flores and The Mountain Witch. Granted, he didn't work for free, but he did it for a *whole lot* less than he deserved. There are really good people out there that are looking for a way to break into things, and just want to get a couple projects in their porfolio. True, it's never a guarrentee that it will work out spectacularly, but it's worth trying.

Look, I don't want to disparage Don publically because I think his illustrations are beautiful and he's a nice person. But the experience with him was not smooth from a professional standpoint.

Professionals make deadlines and stick to them or communicate clearly.

[Keith Senkowski]

If that's the case, they're not professional artists and should be taken with a grain of salt. No professional is going to sacrifice that much time for someone else's vision. Maybe your illustrator is a friend and will cut you a deal, but recognize that the illustrator, or designer, or whoever you're dealing with is sacrificing their resources for your book. It takes a lot of time to make a decent illustration. Time they could have spent making money to buy food.

Maybe your boyfriend's an illustrator and wants to support you. But he's still sacrificing something for your project.

Yeah.  Bullshit Joshua.  I'm a professional.  I work at a reasonable rate for independent publishers.  It is no where close to what I get paid for freelance corporate illustration and logo design or for my day job.  Working at a rate commiserate with the market doesn't make me less of a professional.  It makes me someone who understands the realities fo the market.  Period.

Keith