good reviews not enough?!?

[darrick]

hey guys, i finally got a really great and thoughtful review for Empire of Satanis.  and my Lulu numbers have budged a grand total of 3 over the whole week (normally i sell one copy every week or so).  so obviously, good reviews alone are not enough.  i don't make any money, i'm just trying to spread my vision.  thank Satanis, i don't need to make a living with this!  ;)

anyways, are there no-cost promotional things besides posting regularly on forums etc. to get people interested?  if there's something cheap and easy i've overlooked, please let me know.  maybe my indie rpg numbers are comparable to everyone elses, i don't know?

and yes, there are drawbacks to my game such as the iffy layout and no interior art.  although, on the plus side people really do like the game!  i know there has to be rpgs with crappier production values and aesthetics selling much better than EoS.  is it all do to $$$ poured into advertising?

thanks, D

p.s. here's the super review posted on rpg.net:  http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11626.phtml

http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Darrick,

Quick point: paid advertising does not help. I want to get that clear as soon as possible.

What really sells games, on-line, is your presence. You have to be a nice guy.

1. You have to thank folks for their opinions even when they are wrong, and you have to lay down the law to people when they misunderstand something so others won't think you're a pushover. And you have to know which one to do with which people.

Similarly, you must learn never, ever, ever, to defend your game against unreasonable attacks. At most, clarify the point, but only to people who are being reasonable in the first place.

2. Get the website into enough shape that it's fun to browse around, or offers interesting stuff to download or participate in.

3. Start being mutualistic toward other people's games, either here or at other websites.

4. Post about actual play and practice point #1 above to your very best ability.

Best,
Ron

[Jack Aidley]

I have a few comments on potential reasons.

First up, if I go to google and search for empire of satanis, I get a link up to http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/Empire%20of%20Satanis.pdf which appears to be the full text of your game? It's possible those who are looking for your game are simply downloading from here rather than going through Lulu.

Secondly, the web page at http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/satanis-1a.htm would, were I a customer interested in your game, put me off pretty much instantly with the naked tentacle chicks. If I got past that and clicked through to the EoS content 1 I'm faced with a big chunk of unformatted, amateur looking white on black text which starts out with a "Yo". That kind of presentation is not going to win you any friends. The EoS content 2 link contains better text, that is both more accessible and readable if still badly formatted. I'd consider removing the naked tentacle chicks, spending a few minutes formatting up the text and labelling the links better. I expected to find short previews under the links not extended reviews/play reports. Nowhere on your site is there any punchy, short "this is what EoS is" or "why you should play EoS" text.

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, you have to consider your content, too. I think it's more than possible that the nature of the game has a pretty limited audience. As anecdotal evidence, I personally have no interest whatsoever in playing the game, and I've looked at it pretty closely. I'm not only not interested in it, but actually repulsed. I'm just now trying to figure out how much money one would have to pay me to actually play a session...

It had to occur to you that your game would get somewhat this reception, didn't it? That is, I could write an absolutely brilliant system that perfectly supported play about eating toe jam, but I don't suppose it would sell well. I'm not saying you don't have a market for your game. I'm saying it just might be very small.

Mike

[darrick]

thanks for reminding us of those indie rpg cardinal virtues Ron.  i believe there's a place for all of us at the gigantic table of gaming.

if tentacled girls turn you off, then Empire of Satanis is definitely not the game for you.  much of the game is, or has the potential to be, a XXX version of Call of Cthulhu. 

yeah, i've been meaning to polish some of the supplementary material, it does look pretty rough.  i know nothing about webdesign, so i pay a guy $80 an hour to make changes for me.  this cruel reality often discourages me from updating and improving.  however, i have plans to include newer and cleaner looking (but still highly immoral) material in the near future.

i thought about the majority of people downloading the pdf off the site itself after i posted my query, so thanks for that idea. 

hmmm, a game about eating toe jam... wait, i'm getting an idea!  haha.

actually, i take your revulsion as a huge compliment.  may Satanis bless you, sir.

darrick
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

p.s.  EoS is being translated into German, can't wait to hear what they think!

[Jared A. Sorensen]

#1 - Nice Anton LeVey look you have going on in that pic.

#2 - Ron is dead on right. Also: you're selling a pervy game, seek pervy venues to promote it. Last but not least, it takes time. Most people do not know who you are (or care). The trick is to make them know you. Then, make them love you. Then, cut off their heads and keep their parts in your freezer.

#3 - Speaking of horror and tentacles, you are getting raped if you're paying $80 an hour for that site design. Hell, I'd make you a decent website for half that amount. I'm sure one of the helpful gnomes here on the Forge would help you make something truly special.

[chadu]

Quick point: paid advertising does not help. I want to get that clear as soon as possible.

I'd like to disagree with you, Ron.

In my expericence, I've found that targeted and limited paid advertising can help move copies of games. I've run a couple ad campaigns that have directly translated anywhere from 3 to 20 sales per ad run. Note that the bigger sales numbers are front-loaded, so there are diminishing returns. (This has been move evident with Truth & Justice than with Dead Inside.)

However, paid advertisment grants minimal return compared to Word-of-Mouth.

What really sells games, on-line, is your presence. You have to be a nice guy.

No disagreements about the other points you make.

Good gaming,

CU

[Jared A. Sorensen]

In my expericence, I've found that targeted and limited paid advertising can help move copies of games. I've run a couple ad campaigns that have directly translated anywhere from 3 to 20 sales per ad run. Note that the bigger sales numbers are front-loaded, so there are diminishing returns. (This has been move evident with Truth & Justice than with Dead Inside.)

How much did you pay for the ad(s)?

In my experience, advertising is really really great...for the person selling ad space.

[chadu]

How much did you pay for the ad(s)? In my experience, advertising is really really great...for the person selling ad space.

I usually get 3 day runs that cost me around $50 total. That's a break-even if I sell 3 or 4 copies of a game, usually.

But that's only for one venue. I've dropped $75 to $150 on ad venues and haven't realized squat. That's why I mentioned that they needed to be targeted.


CU

[ukgpublishing]

One of the best places to advertise you games in my experience is in your sig line, and make sure you are a profilic and helpful poster on the forums you subscribe to.

[ukgpublishing]

Oops

Image removed from Sig

... Unless of course the forum has a strick no images in sigs rule ;-)

But on other forums they can be great

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Darrick, I see some interesting stuff happening in your game. I see a couple of rules pointing in a good direction — the rules about sharing narration and story direction, for instance — but I see the need for a lot of refinement. That said, you'll fit in just great around here.

Oh, and $80 for web design... I'm a professional graphic designer and I don't charge that much. And I charge a lot. I also do book design, so when your book's ready to fly, we can talk. I'm also not alone in this: there are several others of like skills here on the Forge who would be willing to work with you.

As Mike points out, though, your content is deliberately repellant. That makes it a hard sell outside of the Cthulhu Sex crowd. That's good, insofar as you know you your target market is, and I'd guess it would be worth your while to sell to it. Lulu is almost certainly the way to go for that kind of thing (and there are folks here who use other POD services and like them, too).

The biggest thing, though, is to remember Punk: it came into existence because some smart people recognized a niche, and then the tape and zine trading began. It's community that makes niche stuff fly.

If your friends dig your game, get them out talking it up, too. Carefully, deliberately.

Welcome to the Forge, Darrick!

Oh, hey, and you too, ukg! Do you have a real name?

[ukgpublishing]

Oh, hey, and you too, ukg! Do you have a real name?

Yep, John Milner of UKG Publishing.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Let's get this discussion back on topic, or close it.

Darrick, do you have any other points or questions that you'd like to raise about this topic?

Best,
ron

[darrick]

thanks for the compliments and suggestion about seeking that niche audience, Jared.  i definitely agree with that.  i wish more pervy Satanism freaks knew about, let alone played, roleplaying games.  although, it's not a concrete wall, just an obstacle. 

i appreciate the feedback on my site's outdated gaming content.  it was looking pretty flimsy and needed something fresh.  so i did get off my butt and put some new, and fancy-lookin' PDF's up for Empire of Satanis:  http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

yeah, the webdesign price was $60 for a long time and just went up to $80.  these guys are fast though, so an hour of work for one designer might only take them 30 min.  but i will consider it, thanks for the offer. 

in very recent news, i just had what can only be described as a trainwreck nightmare of a "review" on rpg.net, and an interesting phenomenon has occured!  i got less hits but more sales than i did with the great review.  at first i thought it was due to harsh negativity drew onlookers.  perhaps it was because i really made my presence known Aleistar Crowley or Anton LaVey style on the forum thread attached to that review.  very over-the-top, but then so was that guy's opinion of EoS.

here's the review if you guys haven't seen it:  http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11656.phtml

also... banner-exchanges anyone?  the banners/links i currently have do not reciprocate, :( so i'm going to replace them in about a month.  thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

Darrick Dishaw
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net