Cheap Short Run Printing

[Matt Gwinn]

HI everyone,
While searching high and low for an affordable way to get kayfabe printed I came across this site

http://www.greenepublicationsinc.com/

They can print perfect bound books for less than 3 cents a page in runs as small as 25 copies!!  This is about a fifth of what most of the places I checked out were charging.  

Seems too good to be true to me, so if anyone has any experience with this place let me know.

,Matt

[Tyrant]

That dpoes seem a bit too good to be true, but I'd also love to hear any experiences with these guys..


Some very good prices I must say

[Eugene Zee]

Matt,

A good person to talk to is Marc Miller.  You can find his information on the resources page at the Wizard's Attic website (http://www.wizards-attic.com/Printers.html).

Good luck and I would be interested in seeing if this works out for you.

Eugene

[Chris Passeno]

Sounds good, so long as you are aware of what you will be getting.

I don't know who you have typesetting your book, but to save hassles down the road, use Pagemaker, Quark, or Indesign.  They say that from now on, they only accept PDF's.  What ever you do, don't think that it doesn't matter what program you set it in, it will end up a pdf anyway.  Not all PDF's are equal, especially Microsoft products (yuck).  Going to print from a PDF is tricky.  If the PDF isn't made exactly right, there ain't nothing that can be done with it.  A new file must be supplied.

They are a POD.  That means that they are going to copy the guts of the book, not print.  Toner is fine particles of plastic.  If, for instance, the book sat on a shelf for an extended amount of time, say a few months, there is a chance that the toner will stick together with the page facing it.  When the book is opened later, there will be a noticable crackle as the toner is pulled apart.

At that quantity, the color covers are probably color copied onto the 10pt. C1S.  In the perfect bind process, there may be the possibility of the cover toner cracking as it is wrapped around the book (if your cover is heavy coverage).  There also doesn't seem to be any varnish or coating applied to the cover, which means that it will probably scuff or flake a little bit over a short amount of time.

Don't get me wrong, that is a great price, and the minimum quantity can't be beat.  I would definately request samples of books that they have done.  Preferrably ones with heavy coverage, full bleed covers.

Keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Later,
Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Chris, I agree with everything you said in full. You are so right about the PDF format issue, too.

To go on with the discussion ... I'm thinking, though, that Matt and a number of other people are "publishing" in an unusual way - they are getting a few hard copies into existence for promotional and over-the-counter con-sales purposes. They basically want an ashcan that looks more like a book than an ashcan. (I tried to come up with an alternate term, but only arrived at "spittoon" and "bidet" and realized I should stop.)

So if I were going to print a book for distribution, in a full-sized print run, in the basic or traditional mode of publishing, I'd do what I did: traditional print, real ink, the works. But say I wanted 100 copies to sell for $5 apiece at a series of cons or store demos or whatever, for a full year ... maybe this kind of printing outfit is a better choice.

So what would be better - this sort of company, or just doing the Kinko's thing with a plastic spiral spine? Interesting question.

Best,
Ron

[Chris Passeno]

So what would be better - this sort of company, or just doing the Kinko's thing with a plastic spiral spine? Interesting question.

If given the choice, a POD would be better than a Kinko's.  There is a much higher percentage of finding someone whos career is printing, not just some part-time counter-drone.  

Honestly, it's more economical, at a quantiy of 50-100+, to go with a perfect bind than a spiral, GBC, or Velo, etc.  Once the perfect binding machine is set-up, you can stand back and watch it work.  With the other ways of binding, the labor never decreases with the quantity you get.  It is the same amount of work to spiral 1 book as it is to spiral each of a 100 books.

There is also the added benefit of an imprintable Spine.

Later,
Chris

[Matt Gwinn]

I don't know who you have typesetting your book, but to save hassles down the road, use Pagemaker, Quark, or Indesign.

I'm using Pagemaker 6.5

They are a POD. That means that they are going to copy the guts of the book, not print. Toner is fine particles of plastic. If, for instance, the book sat on a shelf for an extended amount of time, say a few months, there is a chance that the toner will stick together with the page facing it. When the book is opened later, there will be a noticable crackle as the toner is pulled apart.

This would be no different than if I printed it myself or went to Kinkos, which is frankly all I can afford.

There also doesn't seem to be any varnish or coating applied to the cover, which means that it will probably scuff or flake a little bit over a short amount of time.

Their site says the covers are coated on one side.

So what would be better - this sort of company, or just doing the Kinko's thing with a plastic spiral spine? Interesting question.

I actually went to Kinkos first and they want twice as much.
The big bonus over Kinkos is that this place perfect binds the books.

These are the price quotes I got from Kinkos for 24 pages with a card stock 4 color cover and a saddle stitch binding (stapled).

50 Copies = $126.00
100 Copies = $243.00

The other place offers the same thing with a coated cover and perfect binding at these prices plus a $50 set up charge.

50 Copies = $110.50
100 Copies = $221.00

What I don't know is if Kinkos can do coated covers and if so, how much does it cost.  If they can and the cost is negligable I will probably go that route since I don't think I can get 24 pages perfect bound.  By the way, does anyone know the minimum page count needed for perfect binding?


By the way, both place add about $3 to $5 per book to spiral bind them which kind of confuses me because I thought that would be cheeper than perfect binding a book.

,Matt G.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

By the way, both place add about $3 to $5 per book to spiral bind them which kind of confuses me because I thought that would be cheeper than perfect binding a book.

I don't know about everywhere, but at Kinko's, all spiral binding is done by hand - major work.

[Ron Edwards]

OK, one conclusion is clear: nix the spiral binding, stay with perfect or (if the book is slim) something similar.

That said, it still looks as if the POD method is better than Kinko's, if we're going for something that looks nice in ashcan terms.

Agreed? Disagreed? Any further nuances? This is a major issue right now for a lot of people on the Forge, and any/all information about it is crucial.

Best,
Ron

[Chris Passeno]

MattGwinn:
The stock is a 10 point Coated One Side (C1S).  That means that the stock has a smooth glossy coating on one side and a regular paper looking feel on the other side.  The printing is done on top of that glossy side.  What I'm talking about is a Varnish, which is put on after the cover is printed, or a UV coating, which is also done after the printing.

Clinton:
You are correct.  Even in the Commercial Printing shops, a spiral binder can only puch about 10-15 pages at a time.  The spiral is started by hand, and helped along by a little rolling wheel machine.  Then you have to clip and bend both ends by hand with a plier-like tool .  A GBC or Comb bind is punch the same way as the spiral (different cutting die) and the comb is stretched open by a machine, but the book is put into the comb by hand, sometimes sections at a time.  Very laborious, but thankfully mind-numbing.

Later,
Chris

[Chris Passeno]

OK, one conclusion is clear: nix the spiral binding, stay with perfect or (if the book is slim) something similar.

Keep in mind that the minimum spine can't be less than 1/4" width.  If ya fall inside that, consider going with a 24/60# or 28/70# stock instead of a 20/50#

FYI,
Chris

[Clay]

If the book is too small for perfect binding, there are alternatives.

During my brief stint in a print shop, we called this machine a saddle stitcher. It drove a metal wire through the spine and flattened it out on the inside.  Usually done in two or three places on the spine, depending on the size of the work.

The original Traveller Little Black Books were done this way, and back in the days before page count was considered the most important aspect of a game, I saw a lot of books done this way.

The only drawback that I see so far is that you're either going to go through a bigger hassle in page layout, or you're going to pay the printer more for plate composition.  That's because one piece of paper will be holding two separate pages, and except for the center fold, the pages won't be adjacent. The bright point is that I believe there are a number of plugins for Pagemaker than handle this composition for you.  It's probably worth it to pay the shop to do the composition for you though; if you goof it'll lead to added expenses, delays, and/or your book will look kinda stupid.