Forum changes: Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Started by Judd, December 06, 2005, 01:13:37 AM
Quote from: contracycle on December 16, 2005, 11:17:23 AMThe player may never have conceived it as a choice in those terms at all.
Quote from: TonyLB on December 16, 2005, 11:59:48 AMQuote from: contracycle on December 16, 2005, 11:17:23 AMThe player may never have conceived it as a choice in those terms at all.So what? Look ... these choices are choices, whether the player thinks of them that way or not. It's not subjective.For instance, Fred has been offered a choice: Risk some part of Okhfels on a Heroquest to aid his community, or don't. He's chosen "don't." Nobody hit him over the head and used his unconscious body as a ventriloquist's dummy. He said it, he did it, he chose. Now he can give justifications until he's blue in the face ... it would ruin my character, it would destroy my fun, the flavor text supports me, my dog was sick, this guy was holding a gun to my head ... whatever. I. Don't. Care. He doesn't need to justify his decision, to me or to anybody. It's his decision. He has the power and the right to make it any way he sees fit.He can even convince himself afterwards that it wasn't a decision, he never really did have a choice, and that his actions have no meaning whatsoever. Again, I don't care. He can think what he likes.What he can't do is convince me that I can't judge him based on what I see him do and decide. Sorry, we're a judgmental lot, we humans. I look at that decision and I say "Well ... now I know something more about Fred. Cool." I don't know as much (by a long shot) as the people who were playing the game with him, but I know more than I did, and you will never convince me that I don't.When you want people to learn those things about you, when you make it the point of the game, that's my rough and ready definition of Narrativism. Does that work for you?
Quote from: Supplanter on December 16, 2005, 05:08:19 PMBut Owen's answer isn't mine. All one can learn about me from what happened in the session is that I'm willing to create a fiction in which a protagonist answers Yes to the question.Maybe that's the kind of learning you're talking about?
Quote from: Supplanter on December 16, 2005, 05:08:19 PMDo we need a new thread? It feels like we're drifting pretty far from the original topic.
Quote from: Supplanter on December 16, 2005, 05:08:19 PMFred, please correct me if I misinterpreted your perspective. Mike too.
Quote from: Vaxalon on December 15, 2005, 01:12:53 PMI guess what I'm getting at, is that if a mechanic does not produce stakes that I'm willing to accept, then the mechanic fails in its task of assisting the setting of stakes.
Quote from: Storn on December 17, 2005, 08:56:18 PMThe mechanic is not there to generate stakes... but to prompt ideas. If you accept the stakes.... the mechanic has succeeded.Where the mechanic might fail if arguing and complaining and reliance on multiple die rolls ensues... and I think most gamers have had evenings like that... then the mechanic has not "facilitated" a compromise. But the players and GM have "failed" in a sense as well.
Quote from: CPXB on December 18, 2005, 02:19:07 PMFirst, I think an issue -- not necessarily a *problem*, I should add -- about the explicitness of stakes is a certain lack of suspense. They basically know what's gonna happen, one way or the other.
Quote from: CPXB on December 18, 2005, 02:19:07 PMSecond, it weakens the sense of gambling. I think a lot of folks will disagree, and believe that the stakes can "become blisteringly hot", but I think that's false. The stakes are never hot because you never lose something you want to keep. The win=fun and lose=fun means, given that we play games because they're fun, means that all the gambles are false gambles. For a gamble to be meaningful, the loss has to hurt. (Tho', obviously in the HQ example, yeah, that's a legitimate gamble, but in most of to other situations described I would *not* consider that a legitimate gamble.)
Quote from: Paka on December 19, 2005, 03:41:34 AMStakes can be hot and fun. Loss can be fun. Losing can be fun.