My Game: Adventures in the second land

[Aldoth]

This part just leaps out at me, singing with beauty and terror. They want to possess you. (Shudder...). Because being a child is all about having no control over what you do, or where you go, or who you are -- about being, necessarily, a possession of others -- and growing up is a struggle for self-possession in the most literal sense of the world.

That is represented by the SELF stats.
Memory, Heart, Innocence and Joy.

Dropping health works for me. You just loose Self stats. It makes it easier to get lost in the land.

NPCs if they are successful can take self stats from you. Still mulling the process over. The more of the PCs they get the more powerful they get.

There should be provisions for non-human PCs.  Otherwise, most games that stuck to the source material would only have one player and a bunch of NPCs who got way too much screen time.

I have 2 thoughts on this.

1 you can play your guide (that you have given a piece of yourself to.)
2 the common theme of this is that it is human children in these worlds the stranger the PCs are the more you loose the contrast to the land. I want it to be weird and wonderful and magical.

I don't see any need for limitations based on age.  It rings of Changeling-esque pretension, and unnecessarily limits what you could run with this game.  Neverwhere and The Rocky Horror Picture Show easily fall into this genre, and both of them have adult protagonists.

Yes this is true. And I will expand the mechanics to cater to this. There are three more aspects to this game that I want to explore in further detail after i have the core mechanic. Adults in the second land. A guides only game and one for bad children. But to begin with I want to finalise the core mechanic.

Deliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.

While I have not read this. I want to have the core concept strong. If it holds up then I can expand it.

For example the Bad Children could have a Power mechanic.

I just want to throw my hat in with the no randomizer idea. I actually thought of it, but didn't;t suggest it. Maybe use an effort system Like Marvel Universe?
  Something like there is a bolder in the path, and you could decide to use 5 dice of scrappy or 3 dice of clever or something else with a little imagination...

I'm still am married to a random system. I like the idea of a randomiser. I need to have a look at why I like it.

I'm still not totally sure how the game would play: could you post a quick write-up of how you see play proceeding moment by moment? What the players say, what the GM says and so on? I'm interested to know how things like Talismans and Guides actually come up in play.

This is a good question I have no strong answers to this. I see guides and talisman's as gm devices. I want there to be good guides and bad guides.

Good guides (Valentine - Mirrormask, The tin woodsman, the munchkins, Ludo - labyrinth)

Bad guides ( Most of the creatures that Alice meets)

And I definitely want to have bad guides that go good. (Mr tumnus - Narnia, The goblin in Labyrinth)

Talismans can be a magic mirror, a sword use full items.

I suppose that play would look like this.

GM - You have entered into a large round room. In the center of the room is a spiral staircase that has it's stairs on the bottom instead of the top. The floor is covered in large yellow and green splotches and a chandelier rises from the floor to the middle of the room it is also upside down. It leads to the only exit which is in the roof.

You feel very heavy and find it difficult to even move. On the far edge of the room is a small bottle suspended from the floor by what looks like a chain.

Player 1 - Why the hell did you have to choose a baron that likes to flip things. I mean pancakes are a cute idea but this is getting old.

Player 2 - My father is generous so i wanted gluttony to be the idea behind the baron so pancakes came to mind.

Player 1 - OK lets just get out of here. I need to find my dog and we have spent the last two chapters looking for your dad. I am getting low on self.

GM - what do you do.

Player 2 - OK since i haven't lost as much I will struggle across the room to get to the bottle.

GM - It is quite disorientating to walk across the room so heavy and feel like you are upside down.

(Non random version)
Player 2 - Ill use my bravery. To get across.

GM - Are you sure you will not get it back till the next chapter.

Player 2 - yeah ill burn it and cross the floor.

GM - Summoning up the courage you walk slowly across the floor. to the bottle. You approach the bottle and you notice that their is a tag hanging above it.

Player 2 - I grab the tag and read it.

GM - The writing is upside down.

Player 2 - I turn the tag right way up.

GM - the tag reads "Common Sense in a bottle - A great way to straighten things out."

Player 2 - OK so tell me again about Talismans.

GM - OK if you want to take an item from the land you must spend self points to put it in your possession. That way you are declaring the item a talisman and you can carry it around with you.

This bottle looks to have about five doses so it is fairly helpful. It may come in handy later on so it will cost you 2 self points (this will be presented as a percentage of the chapter total)

Player 2 - OK Ill take the bottle Ill give up 2 Memory.

GM - OK you have forgotten the third grade and the taste of ice cream. You pull the bottle and it comes easily off the chain. You walk courageously back to your sister with the bottle.

Player 2 - This looks like it could help.

Player 1 - I don't know that harp I grabbed in the golden forrest put us all to sleep and cost me three SELF points.

Player 2 - Unless you can fly.

Player 1 - OK.

Player 2 - I take a drink.


That same system would be similar for guides.

[Mr. Sluagh]

Deliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.

While I have not read this. I want to have the core concept strong. If it holds up then I can expand it.

Oh, you should definitely look at Deliria.  That and all the other faerie games.  In this order:

Grimm (Haven't read it, but from what I understand it's the closest by far to what you're doing.)

Deliria (The second closest.  Very good generic modern fantasy RPG.  Would've been better if it and been more Gaiman and less de Lint, though.)

Exalted: the Fair Folk (Crazy, high-concept game.  I've never seen better support for characters with a totally inhuman way of thinking and interacting with the world.  Has been described as a rules-heavy Adventures of Baron Munchausen, if that piques your interest.)

Changeling: the Dreaming (Cool RPG.  Had its problems.  Could run this sort of thing if pushed.)

Dark Ages: Fae (More low fantasy than what you're trying to do, but had some very good ideas mechanics-wise.)

[Aldoth]

Have changeling the dreaming.

Where do I find the other books.

The one thing that I want to avoid is the trap of when you read books that fall into the genre you get tied into the constraints of the genre.

The point of this is that I don't want this to be a fairy game. I mean I love Fae and midsummer night's dream is my favorite plays. Also early books of magic and Sandman. But this is more about the rules of the stories that I have mentioned. If I wanted to write a faerie book I would look at the Fae's affect on the real world more.

I want this a bit broader. I want it to be more about the players creating the rules of the world (this includes the GM) instead of the world being a version of these characters that work in a certain way.

IE this is a sluagh it does this and acts this way. And then have people ask me where Puck is or why I ha vent included him in the game. Or a more obscure character that I don't know.

I want this to be a bit broader than that.

Partly because there are so many other cultures that have you can then draw on and things that you can do if you aren't just dealing with the faerie.

Hindu

Muslim

Aboriginal

Then again I could be going about this in the wrong way.

I will definitely think about it and faerie will absolutely have a place in this game.

Thanks Sluagh

[Mr. Sluagh]

I understand.  I was mainly just tossing around my fandom.  The only ones that seem truly necessary are Grimm and Deliria.  Exalted: the Fair Folk might also be good, if only for its portrayal of inscrutable faerie tale logic.

[Aldoth]

I understand.  I was mainly just tossing around my fandom.

That is cool and I needed someone to bring up the comparison so that I  am able to answer the question you raised. What makes this different form those products. I need to be aware of what those games brings to the table and what do I bring that is different.

What I want more than anything is that you can use the game to express those fairy tales with the Fae but also go to different places. Oz, wonderland, labyrinth, Neverending Story I feel a game needs to fly those flags more than other games that are out at the moment.


The random mechanic will look a bit like this

GM - You enter a room and the floor is covered by wooden window shutters. pairs and pairs of them cover the whole floor. Some are green some are white. In the background you can hear a loud ticking sound.

Player 1 - Sigh! wooden shutters on the floor. If this is another flip flop room. Oh wait a ticking sound. Is there any pattern to the shutters.

GM - Roll your cleverness. Do you want to burn any traits?

Player 1 - Umm yeah I will spend knowledgeable. So that is three dice for cleverness and I get one success for knowledgeable. 4, 3 and five that is 7, 6 and 8 cos I add my stat to my roll. OK that is 2 great successes and 2 good successes.

GM - OK mark off Knowledge you will get that back at the start of the next chapter. The ticking sound gives you a clue you look down and you can see a glinting between some of the shutters. It is mainly the green ones that are in a giant clock face pattern.

You look closer between the slats and notice that there is something big back there. Then it hits you what you are looking at. This is one giant room full of cuckoo's the shutters must open when the clock goes off.

Player 2 - Right OK can we get back through the door we just left. I don't feel very safe in here. The whole room could go off any minute.

GM - the door behind you is stuck.

you hear a click whirring sound.

Player 1 - Crap.

[Mr. Sluagh]

That is cool and I needed someone to bring up the comparison so that I  am able to answer the question you raised. What makes this different form those products. I need to be aware of what those games brings to the table and what do I bring that is different.

What I want more than anything is that you can use the game to express those fairy tales with the Fae but also go to different places. Oz, wonderland, labyrinth, Neverending Story I feel a game needs to fly those flags more than other games that are out at the moment.

The only games I can think of which are even in ballpark of what you're doing are Deliria and Little Fears (look it up on Amazon or RPG.net.  I'm in a hurry).  You'll want to take a look at both of them, but you're not in danger of infringing on either.

The random mechanic will look a bit like this:

I prefer the randomless version, personally.

[Mr. Sluagh]

The only games I can think of which are even in ballpark of what you're doing are Deliria and Little Fears (look it up on Amazon or RPG.net.  I'm in a hurry).  You'll want to take a look at both of them, but you're not in danger of infringing on either.

Scratch that.  The one game that's tried to cover this territory is Grimm, but it's d20 and much narrower in scope.  From what I've heard, it does surprisingly well for trying to shoehorn this genre into that system, though.

[Aldoth]

Thanks for the info. From looking at Grimm it doesn't really work in the same way the players have less input to the story and that is something that I wanted to have for my game.

I think that the next step for me is to start writing up the first draft of the rules. Does any one have any questions or contributions on the random/non random mechanic?

[Warren]

I really like this concept, and as others have said, you seem to have started off with a pretty good core. Personally, I think you should focus more on the 'human kids lost in a fantasy world' aspect rather than the standard Fae-folk stuff, and your initial draft looks good to me.

I think that you should use randomisers. d6s are fine and I like the simple roll-and-add mechanic. Fancy dice systems don't attract me unless they do something very different with it (like Dogs in the Vineyard). Also, I don't think that you need a specific combat system - it's rare to have full on tactical combat (enacted by the human kids) in the source material (Narnia, Pan, etc.) and I think adding combat rules will drag the game in the wrong direction.

That being said, I hate unopposed rolls. It's my opinion, but I think it will be more dramatic if all rolls are opposed - fights, arguments, climbing trees, everything. The opposition doesn't have to be physically present - in Narnia, I dare say that you could use the White Witch as an opponent even though they may not be present in person in the scene. And if you can't see any obvious opposition, then why not just let the player do it? (OK, this is Vincent's "Say Yes or Roll Dice" restated, but it's done a world of good for my games).

So, if I may suggest:

Roll 1d6 + Stat. Roll another 1d6 and add it on if you decided to use one of your unused traits (such as 'Angry') and the group thinks it's applicable; if you do this, mark that trait as used. If my opponent has any used traits that you think you could take advantage of (such as 'Proud'), then roll another 1d6 and add it on to your total and let your opponent mark it as unused.

I - as your opponent - does the same to generate my total. They can use their own Traits and take advantage of your unused Traits in a similar way.

You - as the PC - can spend your Imagination points to boost your total, if you think you have to.

Whoever wins can then inflict 'damage' on the loser. As Health is going - an idea I agree with, incidentally - you would lose some of your Self points (Memory, Heart, Innocence or Joy). 

This is all unplaytested, off-the-top-of-my-head ideas, but I hope it is of some help.

Looking forward to seeing this game,

Warren

[Aldoth]

So that would be the second land as the opponant. I think that if this is the case i need to beef up SLEF maybe you loose one from one of the stats at the end of the chapter instead of the one form each stat otherwise you will loose your character to the land really quickly.

Should I have 2 mechanics in the game.

One for random mechanics and one for those that they want to use non random mechanic.

[Aldoth]

OK I just thought that the characters can risk SELF to do actions of great dramatic significance if they do this it is an opposed roll and the land can roll or the baron can roll depending what the roll was effecting.

So you burn traits to add success to a roll.

I think that I will go with a random mechanic.

I will start writing the first draft tomorrow of the rules.

[Warren]

Oh, don't take my suggestion as the be-all and end-all! Personally, I would not support diceless system - but again, that's just me. You should go with what feels 'right' to you, and not be a slave to popular opinion and try to be "all things to all men." If that means going diceless, then so be it!

But I think that good dice systems can help. Having full-on conflict between the characters and the world (but not between the players) is good to keep everyone engaged. And I've found that people don't push as hard in diceless systems, as the risk of "Hey, you are always picking on me", and as such the conflict ending up to be between players instead, seems to high - hence it's tempting to softball it. With a diced system, you can just look to the dice and think "Hey - that's the way things go" and I think that allows people can push the conflicts that much harder, and IMHO, that provides better play.

Vincent Baker has put all of this much clearer than I could ever hope to. Look to the bottom article (Resolution, Why?) on Vincent's Roleplaying Theory, Hardcore page. The rest of the page is worth reading too, if you haven't already.

Warren

[Graham W]

Hi Aldoth,

As a game recommendation: you definitely, definitely ought to read The Shadow of Yesterday. Firstly, it does a lot of things you're talking about: for example, letting the players design the world rather than the GM; and handling "opposed" and "unopposed" rolls. And it's set in a sort of ethereal fantasy setting.

Secondly, there's a lot of theory talked about on this site, and Shadow of Yesterday explains it really well.

Thanks for posting the example of play. Just to point out: you've put lots of power in the hands of the GM. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there's other ways to do it. For example, when the GM says:

GM - OK you have forgotten the third grade and the taste of ice cream.

...could you have the player choose what they forget? Perhaps the player could make a list, at the start, of things that really matter to the character. Then they'd have to choose what to sacrifice.

And generally, it looks as though the GM has designed a world which the players discover. When you say:

Player 2 - This looks like it could help.

Player 1 - I don't know that harp I grabbed in the golden forrest put us all to sleep and cost me three SELF points.

Is it true that the GM decides what the harp did? There's different ways you could handle this, if you wanted to. For example, you could do this...

Player 1: I grab the harp and play it. I'm trying to play a magical tune that reminds me of who I am.

[Player 1 rolls some sort of dice. Let's say he rolls a failure of some sort.]

GM: All right, so you don't remember who you are. What happens?

Player 1: Say, I go to sleep?

GM: OK, the harp starts to sing and you feel yourself drifting away. When you wake up...

Or again, you could handle it like stakes in The Shadow of Yesterday:

Player 1: I grab the harp and play it. I'm trying to play a magical tune that reminds me of who I am.

GM: OK, fine, but if you fail, you're going to send everyone to sleep.

[Player 1 rolls some sort of dice. Failure.]

Player 1: So we're asleep.

GM: Yes you are. When you wake up...

Long post, but I hope it's of some help. None of these are definite suggestions, but I'm just saying there's other avenues you could explore, if you wanted.

Graham

[Sydney Freedberg]

Agreed. For a game about dream-like experiences especially, it's very dangerous to give the GM authority to threaten or take away important things without the player having any recourse -- I'd find it really frustrating to have the GM say, "you play the harp? Well, it puts you to sleep" or "You want to get out? Well, the door locks behind you." The player should know what they're risking, at least in general terms (as in "I give up 2 Memory," "Okay, you lose 3rd grade and the taste of ice cream") and have power to affect the outcome.

You really need to check out some games that do this "stakes-setting" very clearly, because traditional RPGs are terrible at it, and often outright encourage the GM to spring nasty surprises on the players without giving them any power to affect the situation. I personally would suggest

1) Ron Edwards's Trollbabe
2) Vincent Baker's Dogs in the Vineyard
3) Tony Lower-Basch's Capes, of which a free demo version is available at Tony's site.

I'd also suggest checking out the free online version of Legends of Alyria to see a nontraditional approach to a dream-like world.

[Mr. Sluagh]

Just a random idea; have you considered defining characters according to their failings rather than their virtues?  Bastian Balthazar Bux is interesting because of his cowardice and later, his hubris, not the sentiment that helps him overcome them.  In MirrorMask, Helena's defining trait is her submissiveness, not the courage that eventually helps her triumph.  Dorothy's naïvete moves the story along, not the savvy she develops in the end.  Just a thought.