[Star Wars] Did the Plot Run Off?

[ErrathofKosh]

It's been quite some time, but the other night I started roleplaying again. 

The evening began as a social gathering with two friends I've played with before and a friend with whom I've never played, but who has roleplaying experience.  After dinner, we sat around and reminisced about old times, and, of course, our past roleplaying games came up.  I reminded everyone that I still had my books and that we could play right then.  It actually took a moment to sink in.  (We'd all been away from each other for quite some time...)  So we decided, enthusiastically, that it was time to begin.

Besides me, we had Brian (as GM), Shaun, and Tony.  (We play Star Wars D20, btw.)

Brian or I am usually the GM, but I think we both felt some reluctance this time (probably because we both wanted to play).  We rolled for it and he was instated as GM.  He began by asking us if we had any particular characters we wanted to use (because he didn't have any particular idea of his own at the moment, which he admitted to me later) and we all were very non-committal because we had no burning ideas of our own. 

Eventually I suggested we all play against our usual type of character.  (Why?  I'm not sure.)  So I created a mechanic-pilot who has difficult interacting with people and doesn't know one end of the blaster from the other.  I called him Corrin Tusk.  Shaun created a mystic force-user who uses only primitive weapons named Telyon and Tony decided to to be his younger brother without force powers.  His character was named Del.

Without really deciding hwo we got there, we (the players) decided that are characters were stuck on Nar Shadda, trying to work for a living.  And that's when the shooting started...

Telyon and Del were bouncers at a cantina that Corrin frequented.  Since business was slow the three fraternized a bit and became friends. Corrin was working freelance fixing ships for various captains that arrived in that sector.  Oftentimes Teylon and Del would come along, when they weren't working, to watch their friend's back.  In return he allowed them to move into his larger, nicer quarters.

One slow day at the cantina, the three friends were dicing when a large, physical alien entered the bar.  (A Devaronian, for those who care.)  He sat down not far from the trio of PCs.  Eventually Corrin noticed that the alien kept glancing in his direction, so he got up and went over to the stranger.

"What do you want?" Corrin asked bluntly.

The alien was clearly nervous, "I have a job for you... if, you want it though, I need you right away."

Corrin was obviously suspicious, but he took the bait, "Alright, lead on."

He nodded to his two friends as he tossed them the dice and headed out the door.  The side door.  Telyon was also suspicous, so after a moment he followed Corrin and the alien.  He opened the side door to a desperate scene.  Advancing on a cornered Corrin were two more hefty aliens (Gran).  The first alien stood a little ways off with a smug look on his face.  But, he paled when Telyon yelled and charged the two thugs.

Del heard the yell and came busting out shortly thereafter.  Corrin pulled his blaster and promptly dropped it. Teylon engaged the thug closest to him.  The other thug charged into Corrin and dropped him with his club.  Corrin lost conscious for a brief moment. 

Del helped Telyon dispatch the first thug, when Corrin woke up and smoked the second thug with the blaster he had fallen on.  It was at this point that the first alien made a break for it. 

So I made a decision.  Clearly my character wasn't the fighting type, he'd definitely gotten lucky with the blaster shot, and he was still woozy.  I had him sit up and watch the fleeing alien.  And, for some reason, the other two thought that I was the leader.  They stayed put as well.  So we had the characters go back into the bar.  And nothing else happened.  Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play.  We had to stop, because he wasn't prepared for this occurence. 

He said to me later, "You just sat there and let the plot run away!  Had you caught him, you might have got him to talk."  And, indeed, had I not decided to play my character the way I thought he would react, we would have kept playing.  Now, to be fair, this was our first time back.  Given time to prepare, Brian would have had other adventures and mysteries ready for us to explore.  But, at that moment, our characters were still really two-dimensional and so we stumbled into a blind alley.  He thought he could hook me, but when that failed he had no more hooks for anyone.  I'm not so sure the plot ran away, but the game definitely did!

I'd love comments and observations about this session.  And please, ask me some questions. 

[Glendower]

I guess I'd like to ask you how you thought the game should have gone.  What you (the player) would have liked to see.  What you think would be neat for your character to accomplish or experience.  Maybe, if you were GM, what you would have done with their characters.  Just broad strokes, really, nothing specific. 

So I made a decision.  Clearly my character wasn't the fighting type, he'd definitely gotten lucky with the blaster shot, and he was still woozy.  I had him sit up and watch the fleeing alien.  And, for some reason, the other two thought that I was the leader.  They stayed put as well.  So we had the characters go back into the bar.  And nothing else happened.  Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play.  We had to stop, because he wasn't prepared for this occurence. 

He said to me later, "You just sat there and let the plot run away!  Had you caught him, you might have got him to talk."  And, indeed, had I not decided to play my character the way I thought he would react, we would have kept playing.  Now, to be fair, this was our first time back.  Given time to prepare, Brian would have had other adventures and mysteries ready for us to explore.  But, at that moment, our characters were still really two-dimensional and so we stumbled into a blind alley.  He thought he could hook me, but when that failed he had no more hooks for anyone.  I'm not so sure the plot ran away, but the game definitely did!

[dindenver]

Hey Johnathon,
  Well, I dunno about your group, but if you have a good tactical mind, maybe a little table talk could have cleared this up. Just saying, hey, wouldn;t your character want to know what this guy was doing? Might have solved this for both you and Brian.
  Even if your character is not the group leader, you, the player, can be. And it might not be impossible for your character to be the leader, sounds like he is the brains of the operation and the landlord, lol
  The GM did the best they could, most "heroic/adventurous" would want to know what happened to them. I guess you guys could have asked around different contacts and found out if it was a random act of violence or someone has it in for one of you three...

[droog]

How long is it since any of you last played an RPG?

[Larry L.]

Hey Jonathan,

So, to clarify, all the stuff until the alien walks in was framed by the players mutually, right? Or did you have to "play it out"?

Yes, I'm curious about your expectations for how this game "should have went" too. Do y'all seem to have more fun when you're rolling dice and savoring the victory, or are you more interested ending up with some sort of thematically-interesting story?

Right now, the only problem is see is that you resolved the first Bang, and nobody was interested in playing more.

[Callan S.]

He said to me later, "You just sat there and let the plot run away!

I had a recent experience, where well after a game a friend said on the phone "Well, there was more to that game but [disparaging tone]you guys took so long"
I couldn't articulate it at the time. But it was a sense of "Huh, the game that I thought was a nice bit of fun, actually went poorly, because [incredulous tone] we we didn't arrive at some spot specified by you?"

In your play account, the term generally used is illusionism. Here it's a gentle type of illusionism...the GM doesn't force you, he just remembers how you normally act then sets up the adventure so the way you normally act will take you through it. It's sort of like "Pick a card, any card" when the GM is relying on the fact that you usually pick a blue card. When you pick a red one, he get's annoyed. Because that's the key with illusionist play - the GM appears to offer you a choice, but isn't intereseted in what you actually choose.

On the other hand though, illusionism is often adopted by GM's, because they think they have to offer certain choices, like pursue or head back to the bar. And those choices can lead to really boring results (sittin' in a bar) - so the GM decides to 'guide' the players.

Scene framing (often confused with railroading at first), is another method of getting around choices that lead to boring events. But I'm getting ahead of myself. How does this post sound so far?

[TonyLB]

Well, I don't know if I think it's necessarily illusionism.  There's a difference between not wanting people to jump the rails and simply being caught flat-footed by an unexpected turn of events.

Another possible explanation is that Brian is sitting here thinking "Oh %#%^, I'm supposed to make up a plot on the spur of the moment.  Uh ... Uh ... He's jumped in the alley by thugs!  Now, while they're dealing with the thug I'll think up how the thug is going to react when they capture and interrogate ... what?  Wait!  They're letting the thug get away.  I've now got two seconds to figure out my next move.  Brain-freeze!"

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.  In his place I'd probably have just turned to Kosh and said "Okay.  Corrin knows who sent these guys.  Why are they after him?"  But that's me.

[Rob Carriere]

This is basically an "I agree with Tony" post.

One of the games I run has a player who does this sort of thing regularly and the running deal is, 'You can dud any scene you like, but you have to give me something back that I can riff off.' I can't and won't be solely responsible for keeping a character in the game.

So in your case, you dud the chase and that's cool. Were I the GM, I'd now be telling you that you owe me something to use as seed for improvising. The something can be obviously related to the abortive chase, like Tony's suggestion, or it can be a completely different thing, up to you. And those are the key words, up to you.

SR
--

[Callan S.]

I think this is a key part of the account "Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play.". He was appeared to be offerng a choice, but he really expected a certain result.

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.

Well, to me that fits in the illusionism category. It's offering two boxes, but one of them is empty. That isn't a choice, IMO. Imagine playing a matrix inspired game, you choose the blue pill and suddenly the game ends. Why offer that choice, then? Just scene frame right past that "So you chose the red pill, of course, and..."

[ErrathofKosh]

I guess I'd like to ask you how you thought the game should have gone.  What you (the player) would have liked to see.  What you think would be neat for your character to accomplish or experience.  Maybe, if you were GM, what you would have done with their characters.  Just broad strokes, really, nothing specific.

- Usually Brian is able to put us into situations where most of the options lead to more difficult situations.  He ups the stakes until there is natural resolution to the whole chain.  For example, a situation on Mon Cal...  We were deep in the underwater city, in one of the glass observing domes, when a Star Destroyer began to sink past us, in the process of exploding.  Soon afterwards, troopers in Zero-G armour showed up outside our dome and begin cutting into the city with lasers.  Fortunately they hadn't seen us, so we tried to get out of the area.  Just as it looked as if we would escape we came around a bend and almost ran into the back of one of the troopers.  One of our guys crept forward, initiated a thermal detonator and shoved it into a crevice on the back of the guy's suit.  The security system in the area detected the live explosive and closed all the blast doors in the area, cutting off the trooper and the PC from the main group.  The PC ran as far as he could and dived under the rising water in the hallway (which was pouring through the hole the trooper had cut).  The explosion ripped through the entire section and blew the PC out into the ocean.  He had to do some spectacular swimming to reach the surface.

In this case, we tried to avoid the conflict, but ran into another, which forced us to tackle the situation.  A poor decision (in-game) lead to an even more difficult situation that the PC barely survived (he got lucky using the dice).  Personally, I wouldn't have even let him roll, but that's neither here nor there, just a matter of system, really.

I believe the way Brian usually operates is by creating some motivated NPC's that the PC's will run into, no matter where they choose to go.  He allows the players to freely choose their character's reactions to the NPC's, but he also throws in random conflicts to test the character's abilities and the player's decisions.  Thus, another small example:  Lucien the Sith-master (NPC) is looking for an apprentice when he runs into Sol Kelstar (PC), a young, master-less Jedi.  As the player I have a free choice over how I have my character react, but Brian also seems to be able to predict my choice fairly accurately.  This leads me to some questions, but I want to address some of the other posts before I get there. 

Hey Johnathon,
  Well, I dunno about your group, but if you have a good tactical mind, maybe a little table talk could have cleared this up. Just saying, hey, wouldn't your character want to know what this guy was doing? Might have solved this for both you and Brian.
  Even if your character is not the group leader, you, the player, can be. And it might not be impossible for your character to be the leader, sounds like he is the brains of the operation and the landlord, lol
  The GM did the best they could, most "heroic/adventurous" would want to know what happened to them. I guess you guys could have asked around different contacts and found out if it was a random act of violence or someone has it in for one of you three...

- Your right about the "table talk," but in this case, it didn't happen.  Probably because we were rusty!  But, it was a good incident, because it raised some questions in my mind about how we roleplay.  After I address the rest of the posts, I'll get to my questions and observations. 

How long is it since any of you last played an RPG?

- At least a year and half!  And that probably contributed to the situation, but again, it raised some good questions for me.

Hey Jonathan,

So, to clarify, all the stuff until the alien walks in was framed by the players mutually, right? Or did you have to "play it out"?

Yes, I'm curious about your expectations for how this game "should have went" too. Do y'all seem to have more fun when you're rolling dice and savoring the victory, or are you more interested ending up with some sort of thematically-interesting story?

Right now, the only problem is see is that you resolved the first Bang, and nobody was interested in playing more.

- Actually the bar scene was the first bit framed by the GM, though he did ask us to roleplay it a bit, which we did.  As for the "fun," I was very happy my character survived the fight, but I was disappointed with two different things.  I wanted to know why the guy had planned the attack, and I also wanted to try my character's abilities at fixing ships.  As far as resolving the first Bang and not wanting to play more, I think it was more of issue of us not having any more Bangs prepared.  But, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what a Bang is. 

I had a recent experience, where well after a game a friend said on the phone "Well, there was more to that game but [disparaging tone]you guys took so long"
I couldn't articulate it at the time. But it was a sense of "Huh, the game that I thought was a nice bit of fun, actually went poorly, because [incredulous tone] we didn't arrive at some spot specified by you?"

In your play account, the term generally used is illusionism. Here it's a gentle type of illusionism...the GM doesn't force you, he just remembers how you normally act then sets up the adventure so the way you normally act will take you through it. It's sort of like "Pick a card, any card" when the GM is relying on the fact that you usually pick a blue card. When you pick a red one, he gets annoyed. Because that's the key with illusionist play - the GM appears to offer you a choice, but isn't interested in what you actually choose.

On the other hand though, illusionism is often adopted by GM's, because they think they have to offer certain choices, like pursue or head back to the bar. And those choices can lead to really boring results (sittin' in a bar) - so the GM decides to 'guide' the players.

Scene framing (often confused with railroading at first), is another method of getting around choices that lead to boring events. But I'm getting ahead of myself. How does this post sound so far?

- Well, if you refer back to the Mon Cal example that I wrote, you can see that there is certainly room for Illusionism to creep in.  But, I also wrote that I think Brian relies on random (physical) conflicts and plotted NPCs.  The conflicts provide a tactical style of fun, while the NPCs and the PCs reacting to each other provide us with the real thing we enjoy... discovering who the characters are (though some of that is revealed in the conflicts).  In this particular case, I think he hadn't thought a lot about the conflict and didn't have anything else prepared to back it up.   

Well, I don't know if I think it's necessarily illusionism.  There's a difference between not wanting people to jump the rails and simply being caught flat-footed by an unexpected turn of events.

Another possible explanation is that Brian is sitting here thinking "Oh %#%^, I'm supposed to make up a plot on the spur of the moment.  Uh ... Uh ... He's jumped in the alley by thugs!  Now, while they're dealing with the thug I'll think up how the thug is going to react when they capture and interrogate ... what?  Wait!  They're letting the thug get away.  I've now got two seconds to figure out my next move.  Brain-freeze!"

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.  In his place I'd probably have just turned to Kosh and said "Okay.  Corrin knows who sent these guys.  Why are they after him?"  But that's me.

This is basically an "I agree with Tony" post.

One of the games I run has a player who does this sort of thing regularly and the running deal is, 'You can dud any scene you like, but you have to give me something back that I can riff off.' I can't and won't be solely responsible for keeping a character in the game.

So in your case, you dud the chase and that's cool. Were I the GM, I'd now be telling you that you owe me something to use as seed for improvising. The something can be obviously related to the abortive chase, like Tony's suggestion, or it can be a completely different thing, up to you. And those are the key words, up to you.

- Those are some very interesting ideas, thank-you. 

I think this is a key part of the account "Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play." He was appeared to be offering a choice, but he really expected a certain result.

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.

Well, to me that fits in the illusionism category. It's offering two boxes, but one of them is empty. That isn't a choice, IMO. Imagine playing a matrix inspired game, you choose the blue pill and suddenly the game ends. Why offer that choice, then? Just scene frame right past that "So you chose the red pill, of course, and..."

- Right, how very right!  All of you.  He engaged in Illusionism because he was thrown into the fire.  He did have one thing in mind, so he didn't he think about the fact that he was giving us a choice when the alien ran off.  It may have been the fact that it's been so long since we played, but usually his response would have been a shrug and the question, "So what's the plan now?" 
He wasn't consciously engaged in Illusionism, but he did make an assumption about how we would react.  This leads me to my next thoughts and questions...

Like I stated, Brian uses "motivated NPCs" to interact with the characters.  But, very rarely do the PCs change the NPCs' motivations drastically enough to change their course of action and thus, very rarely is the final outcome changed very much, usually only in the details (though those details usually regard the PCs, so maybe it's major).  But, at least to me, the actual plot isn't so very important.  It's the way my character reacts to these catalysts (as I like to think of them) and my discovery of who he is that is important to me. So, the question is, am I engaging in illusionism or not?   

To simplify what I'm trying to convey, here's the way I see it.  Whether the bad guys are going to win or lose has already be determined by Brian, it's up to me and the others to determine if our characters go along with them or fight them to the last.  The actual play is deciding which, bit by bit.

[Callan S.]

I get what your saying. Everything can be fixed in terms of how it's going to turn out, but how the PC's are going to turn out, that's the spine tingling question! In fact, it can be even more fun knowing as a player that the fight WILL be lost, yet your character, for some reason, still chooses to fight it. That's even more of a statement!

However, Brian said

"You just sat there and let the plot run away!

Is he interested in how your characters turn out? I believe you showed something about your character, in him not pursuing the thugs. Was he interested in that?

[ErrathofKosh]

Alright, we've had a second session, which turned out much more like I remember.

The characters returned to quarters and spent the entire night paranoid and restless.  The next day they decided to leave town.  Of course, it's never that simple.  The alien reappeared with more thugs as the characters were taking the mass transit system to the spaceport.  A very satisfying fight ensued and my character was rendered unconscious.  Fortunately, the other two characters saved his bacon and were even able to capture the thug!  They interrogated him and learned that the whole fiasco was a result of a job my character had done awhile back.  So, after my character regained consciousness and some ability to walk, we visited the docking bay where the ship was still berthed.  We found everyone onbaord dead (after I used some technical skills to break and enter the place) and thus we've gained a ship and a mystery.

So, Brian managed to bring the "plot" back online and we began really digging our characters.  My character si quickly becoming a liability to the others in rough situations, but his technical abilities have proven invaluable at other times.  Thus, he both irritates the others and warrants protection.  I sat down and filled in a lot of holes in his background and I think Brian will probably begin to use the hooks I've provided him.

As for what Brian is interested in, I've thought about that. He is interested in our characters, but I also think he enjoys telling an interesting story, with interesting villians and unusual twists as well.  As far as that's concerned, we the players have little input, but when it comes to our characters, we choose how they deal with the situations they find themselves in. 

And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

[Glendower]

And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

Is dysfunction measurable?  20 cubits of dysfunction!  *chuckle* just kidding around.

A lot of this is illusionist play, from my understanding, and comparable to what most gaming falls under.  I'd still like to know what you would have wanted, or how you would have ran the game.  You didn't exactly answer the question in your last post, though you did make mention of it.  It's not about what Brian wants or likes to do, though his input is important.  It's about what you want.  Does the lack of input bother you?  Do you want more input as a player?  Do you want things to change, or be different, or something?

[Callan S.]

Hi,

As for what Brian is interested in, I've thought about that. He is interested in our characters, but I also think he enjoys telling an interesting story, with interesting villians and unusual twists as well.  As far as that's concerned, we the players have little input, but when it comes to our characters, we choose how they deal with the situations they find themselves in. 

And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

The amount of dysfunction depends on how much the following conflict - A: Your assertion that you make your characters choices and B: What the GM expects you to choose.

The trick will be identifying just how much the GM expects a certain choice of you at any point during gaming, instead of finding out abruptly like in your first account.

In terms of that, how did your character get knocked out in the game? Open roll? Pure GM fiat?

On a constructive note, you'll also want to look at what you do and don't want a choice about. What you don't want a choice about can become the GM's legitimate tools for shaping the story. But when the GM has no clearly legitimised tools, he infringes on player areas of choice by default...he can't help but do so (he doesn't have his own turf, so to speak, so he's always stepping onto yours). My hypothesis is that GM's get used to the requirement that they operate this way, so illusionism comes very naturally.

[contracycle]

And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

Its only dysfunctional if you are not having Fun.  If you having Fun, then it is fulfulling its function perfectly.

It seems to me the problem here is rather more one related to the pickup nature of the game; as you say, if the game had been planned in advance then perhaps Brian would have been able to recover from that surprise elegantly.  There was a single point of failure in the plot as presented, but for a pickup game on the spur of the moment, perhaps thats not too surprising.  I mean, there may be some underlying issues now that you are aware of this vulnerability, and Glendowers questions are worth answering.

I also fully agree with Callans point about the things you don't want choices about.