Character sheet design

[Ron Edwards]

Here's something I'll put on the site eventually: a PDF character sheet download.

But what should it look like? As Sorcerer veterans know, there's a LOT of room to develop this element of RPG design. Our debates on GO resulted in a GREAT character sheet for that game, which is included in the book form coming out in July.

But how about for Elfs? What matters during play? What could the sheet be and do that makes the unique elements of play (a) easier and (b) more clear?

Best,
Ron

P.S. And as a more general issue, I suggest that the old-school standards for a character sheet (point-balancing, mathematics for derived values, skill lists) are rooted in Simulationist or Gamist assumptions. When applying these standards to a Narrativist game, you end up with big blank spaces. I suggest that we all need to give some serious thought to what a USEFUL character sheet is for a Narrativist game - given Author stance, or Fortune-in-the-middle, or any of the other features of this goal/priority, what's a sheet FOR? How can it perform that role better?

Best,
Ron

[JSDiamond]

Ron, seriously, the character sheet for Elfs should include big obvious spaces for the following:

Stuff I killed
Armor that I wear in my sleep
Magic stuff (all kinds)
Artifacts (especially weapons) that I always have at the ready
Gods I will kill one day

That should do it!

Jeff Diamond

http://www.geocities.com/allianceprime">6-0 Games


[ This Message was edited by: JSDiamond on 2001-04-24 14:45 ]

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Jeff, yes!  Or a checklist:

Ogre...yup, beheaded.
Dragon...uh-huh, stabbed through eye.
Cthulhu...twice.  Once with poisoned meat loaf.

That kind of thing -- a trophy collection, as it were.  I was also thinking that an Elfs "Wall of Shame" would be good for the Elfs website.  Grrr...cross-posting again!  As I said in the other topic...leave plenty of room for a pic of the player's Elf.  Again, to repeat myself, a faint outline of a male or femme elf that the player could customize would be excellent (since Elfs seem to look more or less the same).

[Ron Edwards]

OK, good stuff so far, but it's pretty verbal. How about the symbol, counter, spatial kind of stuff? Since one's "Action Value" is almost always a sum of two things (Spunk plus whichever), should there be some fast way to express that on one's sheet? Some fast way to read it? How might that work?

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

You know what, Ron?  I think something is missing from Elfs.  It's kinda minor (which is maybe why it's not there) but I think it could add even more depth to the player/character split: a formal description of the player's attitude to their character that defines/determines what the player will "want" when using Dumb Luck (we know what the character wants...heh).

As far as the character sheet goes...do you mean, what should it LOOK like or how the layout should be?  Well, you need space for Spunk, Low Cunning, Dumb Luck, Stage, Demeanor, Coins, Equipment and Magic Items.

Maybe an iconic kind of deal?  Like, have the outline of the Elf with a coin pouch and some kind of sack/backpack and you can actually draw in the stuff on your character's person (?) -- of course there would be space to write stuff out.  But the overall look would be one where the picture is central and the stats kind of orbit around it.

- Jared

[Ron Edwards]

Aw, c'mon Jared,

"I think something is missing from Elfs. It's kinda minor (which is maybe why it's not there) but I think it could add even more depth to the player/character split: a formal description of the player's attitude to their character that defines/determines what the player will "want" when using Dumb Luck"

(You must now imagine me lighting up with an incredibly obnoxious grin.) If they can't figure THAT out, then that's the lesson, right there. Buzzer goes off. Get out of the pool. Yeesh, what next, am I supposed to roll the dice for them too?

Boy, this is fun. When I'm discussing Sorcerer, there's kind of this stern intellectual mode that creeps over me. Discussing Elfs definitely brings out the perky snot in me.

Best,
Ron

[archangel_2]

Um, I really don't have any unique ideas for this, but I just wanted to offer my support of the ideas that I liked...

I REALLY liked Jared's idea of a "a faint outline of a male or femme elf that the player could customize" for the Elf Portrait part of the character sheet. I think that's the best idea so far.

I also liked his idea of a list of monsters defeated and how (I personally like the idea of giving three or four examples, and then leaving a lot of blank spaces for many more!)

As for "symbol, counter, spatial kind of stuff", I'm sorry, but I'm not much help in this department. Btw, what IS the Elfs game's symbol? Or does it have one? Seems to me that Jeff Diamond is an EXCELLENT artist, and could probably come up with a REALLY good one... *shrugs*

Anyway, as I said, it wasn't so much a post of new ideas as an affirmation of old ones. Not sure if that was any help, though!

Daniel Worthington

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Dan,

It so turns out those are my favorite suggestions too. Jeff's a busy guy, though, so I don't know if an Elfs symbol or logo is forthcoming.

I have always thought that spatial means of keeping track of important numbers is the best way - you know, like Deadlands with its paper-clip methods around the edge of the sheet, and so on. However, I've also noticed that players resist using them. I don't know why, because all that scribblin' and erasin' is just a pain, but very few players make use of moving counters or other objects on a sheet. It's a mystery.

So that's why I'm asking about this stuff. For instance, you could have three little spaces on the sheet, with counters to indicate the values of Spunk, Low Cunning, and Dumb Luck. When you allocate from LC or DL, just move the counters.

I'd like to know if people think such a method would be a useful device or a waste of time.

Best,
Ron

[GreatWolf]

So that's why I'm asking about this stuff. For instance, you could have three little spaces on the sheet, with counters to indicate the values of Spunk, Low Cunning, and Dumb Luck. When you allocate from LC or DL, just move the counters.

I'd like to know if people think such a method would be a useful device or a waste of time.

I am a fan of counters, too.  I also liked the paperclip idea for Deadlands, especially for ammo.  However, I think that it isn't the best idea for tracking attributes for Elfs for one simple reason:  lack of permanence.  Those attributes are 90% of what we know about the character, which means that at some point they will have to be written down.  I will admit that I have not had a chance to play Elfs yet, but it doesn't seem that they change so frequently (unlike ammo in Deadlands) that the use of counters would be justified.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Seth,

It's the allocation of either Dumb Luck or Low Cunning as add-ons to Spunk that I'm thinking of, which last for one action for each allocation. Also, the penalties to Spunk due to damage.

All these totals end up being ephemeral, but ever-changing, so I like the idea of shifting little counters around on the sheet somehow.

You're right that the END values, or "whole" values, for this stuff doesn't change much though.

Best,
Ron

[GreatWolf]

I could see using counters for Spunk, because of damage effects (although using counters to track damage might be easier).  However, assuming I'm reading the rules correctly, you either add in all of your LC or all of your DL.  In this case it seems too much work (in a way) to shuffle counters around for just one action.  I'd just rather add the numbers in my head.

If the shuffling were permanent or at least were long-term, counters might work.  As it stands, I would not suggest using counters for either LC or DL, although counters to track either Spunk or loss of Spunk might make sense.

[Ron Edwards]

H'm. Good point. (Yes, you're reading the rules right.)

Back to the prototype ...

Best,
Ron

[archangel_2]

Truth, I've yet to play Deadlands (it's on my "to buy" list), and I don't think I've played any games with counters yet, so I don't know what I think of 'em.

However, since advancement is determined by coins spent and monsters killed/defeated, you could easily just have those (as well as damage to spunk) tracked by counters... That's three things, so it gives more of a reason to do it.

One question, though - I can see a paperclip, although that might be difficult at times, too. But you're GOING to have to write it down eventually. (How would you keep the counters on the page till the next game session, or the paperclip in exactly the right position, etc.) Am I missing the point here? Is it only supposed to be for "in a single game sessions use", and then you write down where you left off at so you can use the counters again next week?

Daniel Worthington
the "as yet uninitiated in counters" man

[Ian O'Rourke]

On 2001-04-24 19:14, Ron Edwards wrote:
OK, good stuff so far, but it's pretty verbal. How about the symbol, counter, spatial kind of stuff? Since one's "Action Value" is almost always a sum of two things (Spunk plus whichever), should there be some fast way to express that on one's sheet? Some fast way to read it? How might that work?

Wow, Elfs have a stat called spunk? That's going to go down great over here. What's that quote about America and the UK being seperated 'by a common language'.

Of course you may be aware of the UK meaning (we tend not to use it in the way you intended it).

Anyway, I thought it was fleetingly funny :smile:

[Ron Edwards]

Oh yes, I'm familiar with the term, and it fits the game fine (given a slight squint if you're playing a girl elf). A couple of crude, adolescent references? In Elfs? Oh goodness.

Best,
Ron