Beef Injection: Tim Denee's Punk

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

The Beef Injection series of threads is my bid to focus our attention and effort on some game presentations that got swamped in the recent wave of posts at Indie Design, as well as to provide a model to newcomers about the purpose of the forum. I've passed over some very good game ideas that were presented in isolation, in order to concentrate on the ones which were presented in playable or almost-playable form.

Punk actually didn't get swamped like some others did, but I'll include it anyway.

Hey Tim,

I like a lot of things about Punk. (Pause) But ...

It was not surprising to find that you are not personally more connected to the scene, because there are lots of elements, even in this short work, that are antithetical to punk.

I'm not bringing it up to be picky, but rather to help give the game more focus, more consistency with its own dynamic, and to keep it from becoming generic "um, angry cool shit" at a college-sophomore level. So I hope my slam-dancing on the following points can be taken constructively, especially since I couldn't help but enter into kind of a punky mind-frame in composing them. Try to get into it with me ...

1) Screw the whole street-poet, gazing at sunsets crap. Malcolm is a bum, not a punk. Kick'm in the balls, get a new character example, get a new Soul scene example.

2) Smooth Stan is not a punk either. Assassin? Hits? What're you on about? Me and my mates was hanging 'round the pub, see. Ywanna catch the new band? Naaa, they suck.

Same goes for the Mafia frame example. All the others are fine, but that totally ain't in the ballpark. (Oh, and for the darker than blue one, "preserve some goodness" is not the point - the point is to preserve one's family and one's pride.)

3) Rolling doubles - kill all references to intent. It makes no sense, it relies on the notion that you roll dice for your success, not the characters. In a game like this, any die roll is player success. Just lose the sentence beginning with "However ..." with the boldface in it completely, and now it makes sense.

4) The Man cannot, not should not interfere in Soul scenes. The Man doesn't care shit about "should."

5) Rights and Soul scenes aren't adding up. As I see it, if you're in a scene of any kind, you may or may not roll; if you don't, you basically just aren't interested in Rights for that scene. That applies to any scene, not just Soul ones.

Oh yeah, and why should doubles not apply to Soul scenes? Put the boot in - what, you think family situations can't end up screwing you?

6) In the Reactions section: Question what's worth fighting? Question what's worth fighting? What, are you insane? Reactions are necessary consequences, a simple outcome of the fact that the world's fuckin' fucked, it has nothing to do with prompting whiny-ass reflections about what's worth fighting.

Same goes for Nike and commercial sectors and toxic waste dumps ... punk is not activism. It's anger, and a deliberate act of No.

In conclusion, take the middle class out of it, for the most part. (OK, I'll give you Dilbert and Office Space, and only tiny touches of Fight Club.) What has to go is the sense of making a positive difference at the larger level. Punk is personal, about the people around you, and the fucked-up fuckedness of things. If a whole bunch of you get together, a whole bunch of No gets said at once ... but you still aren't about making things a better place.

Some references, not all punk specifically, just with touches and pieces and permutations of it.
Romper Stomper, SLA Punk, Repo Man, My Beautiful Laundrette, Drugstore Cowboy, Sid and Nancy

Oh yeah, one more thing: I disagree that the GM is "against" the players in this game. The Man is certainly against the characters, but the GM is not The Man and the players are not the characters. I don't perceive any struggle among the real people involved at all.

Best,
Ron

P.S. I'll be putting up about a dozen of these Beef Injection threads over the next week.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

An observation: "Punk," as written, seems to be more about anti-globalization than punk. (Note to everyone: do not discuss the merits of these two or globalization or anything like that. Please.)

One last movie recommendation: SLC Punk. It's quite worth watching for a good understanding of the punk lifestyle, especially in a very oppressive society. And it's got Annabeth Gish looking all fucked-up in it, which is good. (This may have been the "SLA Punk" Ron referred to.)

(Beef Injection. Heh-heh.)

[Ron Edwards]

Oops, yes, SLC Punk. My mistake.

Best,
Ron

[Henry Fitch]

Y'know, this is just my personal opinion, but I think it's a better game the way it is than it would be if it was "punkier". Much more meaningful. Maybe it's because I'm not a punk, but I think this conflict could be resolved much more satisfactorily by changing the name than by changing the game.

[Valamir]

I think I'd have to nod alongside Coyote on this one.  As someone who is completely devoid of "punk" sensibilities I'm left wondering "what the hell is the point to this game" if Ron's suggestions about "punkness" are inserted.  

I mean from my point of view the world IS a completely fucked up place and there are only 3 ways to respond to it.  1) attempt to make do and get by despite feelings of frustration,  2) get angry and attempt to change it for the better (activism), 3) get angry and do nothing constructive whatsoever other than be angry.

This last is what I hear Punk is about from Ron's comments, in which case, I for one would have zero interest in playing a such a character.

To bring this to a constructive (hopefully) point, I wonder that if Tim is not intimately familiar with the punk scene (even as an observer) if he could create a game that would be truly punk and not just a caricature of the punk scene (I know I couldn't).  Otherwise, it might be best to tone down the Punk and stick closer to an American "angry white guy" presentation.

[Mike Holmes]

"angry white guy"

Hell, that could be the name of the game. One could insert one's own punk sensibilities into it if one wanted.

And then all the fight club references suddenly make sense.

Mike

[Tim Denee]

OK old man, let's go.

generic "um, angry cool shit" at a college-sophomore level

Well actually, I am a university student (that's what you call college, right?). And I do think angry shit is cool. Heehee.

Some of your points were about making it harsher, right? Throwing out the street poet thing, the 'should', and so on. Good points, so I'll go with 'em. Incidentally, do you feel like making a quick example soul scene that doesn't sound mushy? I'm having trouble over here.

As to the rest of your points: like you summarized, they're about making it smaller, more personal. I see where you're going. I like it. Thanks.

Now, what I originally thought was that you thought it wasn't technically 'punk' enough; like there's this thing called a punk and my game doesn't recreate it accurately.
However, despite my game being called Punk, it ain't about real world punks. It's about the act of fighting back against an oppressive power. On a small scale, that's what we called punks. On a larger scale, that's activism and anti-globalization.
So Clinton's right. I wrote everything large, so it comes across anti-globalization. If I shrink everything down, it becomes punk. Which I'll do, because that's more personal, and personal's more powerful.
It's like Sorcerer; it's called Sorcerer, but it's really about humanity, right? And imagine if people complained that it didn't model 'real world' sorcerery.

Henry: about the game changing. What Ron's suggesting is nothing mechanical, really, it's all wording stuff. So the game is exactly the same, it's just read differently. Except the doubles in the soul scenes stuff, but that's just a good idea.

Oh, I almost forgot.

Rights and Soul scenes aren't adding up. As I see it, if you're in a scene of any kind, you may or may not roll; if you don't, you basically just aren't interested in Rights for that scene. That applies to any scene, not just Soul ones.

I don't get what you're asking. Can you can clarify this?

if he could create a game that would be truly punk and not just a caricature of the punk scene

The thing is, the game isn't about the punk scene. It's about punks. In my opinion, the concept of a punk is devoid of any connotations other than some little shit who has the balls to stick it to the man. Screw london and bands (although the lyrics posted were cool, so they're going in) and fluffies and spikies. Punk is about punks.
Angry White Guy is actually a pretty cool name, but then it wouldn't be a setting-less fighting-the-system game.

You do too have a group. Find someone you know and like, and who goes "spoo" at the punk references. Grab a couple beers. Play a few scenes.

Is 'spoo' a positive noise or a negative noise?
Actually, I don't have a group. I only moved here a while ago, and I don't have any friends who I know well enough to approach with the spectre of role-playing yet.
But, in a couple of months I'm holiday-ing where I used to live, where my old friends are, and they'll definitely be up for some play-testing.

Before I go, does anyone else want to say what they think of Ron's suggestions? Do you think they would turn the game into something drastically different (for good, for bad, or for 'just different')?

Sorry for the long, ranty, disjointed post.

[Laurel]

I think it would be a real shame to make a "punk" game and make it merely about "tough guys vs the world"  especially if trying to capture the intensity of punk left out of the Gothic-Punk universe by WW.  

Its really impossible to separate punk culture from punk music.  The music was the primary mode of expression and the very nexus of the movement.  Punks weren't just out to screw the man, they were (and are) generations of young adults expressing rage and contempt and defiance for the political and cultural Institutions they had been expected to accept as incontrovertable "reality".  I'd rather see a game that wholy embraced and exressed punk culture and created a game paradigm that celebrated it.  It would be more unique and original and intense in my opinion.  That's just me.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey there,

I've been working on this post since Ralph's post (well, with multiple distractions). Laurel scooped my point perfectly.

The key, perhaps single positive aspect of punk is its artistry. Here I’m speaking not of punk as a brief music phase in late-70s England, or as a subculture in the 80s, but of punk in the broadest sense – a disaffected, disenfranchised, working subclass, suddenly idle, suddenly faced (as teens and young people) with a world that really wishes they didn’t exist. No education, no opportunity, no place to go.

Behaviorally, the effect is ugly and (to a middle-class person) grossly unconstructive – you’re angry, so hit something. You have no culture that respects you, so build one based on immediate acquaintance. Fight over nothing among nearby groups that have done exactly the same. Even philosophically, it’s flawed (again, from that mainstream culture’s viewpoint): you hate being poor, so you sneer at money and its associations. You suffer from power wielded over you, so you exert power through shock, offense, and open hatred back.

What you are missing, Tim, is that punk rages against "oppression" only as a side-effect. It is raging against the whole schmeer, not just instances that can be opposed in-system - but against it All.

The value of punk is its artistry. What happens among these groups? Adopt the devalued items of commercial (“real”) culture, and give them value, wearing trash and utility items for jewelry. Devalue the valued items of commercial culture – is healthy, primped, and pampered hair cool? Make it gaudy, easy to care for, and crude. Is the body revered? Be fat, skinny, or scar it up. Ugly is a statement, statements have value. The more they don’t get it, the more it means. In a kind of weird way, adopt the features of acknowledged disenfranchised groups (usually black people, even if your immediate circle is racist) and appropriate them into new combinations.

Translate that to music – take existing modes, speed them into incomprehensibility or distort the voice into a groan or a shriek. Say things that only make sense to those immediately near you. Combine modes in ways that no one considered before. Art emerges.

Right at that moment, something amazing happens – musicians and other artists at the fringe of legitimate (i.e. commercial) and punk begin to incorporate the sound. A sudden awareness of the “movement” (so-called) spreads like wildfire. Teens of the enfranchised society, eager to appear rebellious, adopt all of the symbols and diction, to their parents’ horror. Record companies swoop like hawks, and some bands “make it” (with all the attendant issues of selling out vs. staying pure).

The final step is, inevitably, co-option. The subculture becomes mainstream fashion, and people sport diamond safety pins and $100 spiked ‘dos. It all sort of … passes by. But during that brief, amazing phase, entire cultures change. Every semiotic detail of society has undergone a relativist shift toward every other detail. Artistry changes the most, in every sphere of expression.

That’s punk. It’s ugly, and every distasteful reaction such as Ralph has articulated is justified in every way. No one wants to be (real) punk, you see. But throughout all the decades of industrialized life and commercial pop culture, it – and only it – is the engine of artistic change.

So my call is this: if Punk (the RPG) is to stay punk, then the key is art. Can you get the band together? Can they suddenly prompt, or express, or just somehow result in a 1000 people in one place, glorying in the realization that they’re all angry about the same thing? Can they be at the vanguard of that “amazing moment”? Can you say what needs to be said, even though in five years, brainless overprivileged teenagers will be quoting you and your words will have lost their power?

Hey, if Punk can present that, then I’m there. I’ll play.

Best,
Ron

P.S. "Spoo" is a positive noise. You go "spoo" when you like something.

[Henry Fitch]

Eh. I still think the problem is that the game isn't really about punks at all, at least not in the sense of any phenomenon that's been labeled "punk" in the real world. It's about a feeling, a general motive, that really doesn't have that much to do with the music and the subculture and such at all. Tim, am I wrong?

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I want to emphasize that I am talking about "punk" in the broadest sense, of which punk (e.g. Sex Pistols, Jodie Foster's Army) was such a fine example that it prompted real inquiry into the phenomenon.

So the mods/rockers deal would be punk, in the broad sense. So would certain aspects of rap or hip-hop. Definitely many phases and aspects of rock and roll, depending on whatever was being tapped for the source (e.g. the blues).

If we stick with that broad sense, then I think the game as written teeters right in between my meaning, and the more middle-class or romantic meaning, "Ooh, those tough, cool, insightful guys, who seem so real." The person who picks is obviously going to have to be Tim.

Although I do think that if it tips toward the activist side, then the game needs a new name and "face" in general.

Best,
Ron

[Laurel]

I agree that Punk the game, in its current form, has a general "screw the man" Premise.  It has some trappings of something more though, and what Ron just described in his last post-  man, I'd LOVE to play a game that addressed all of that.  

In the end, Tim should make whatever game he's happy with and I hope he does.


Its just that there's the potential for something less general, more.... in your face, you can't avoid dealing with us passion that I think is what has been missing from the cyberpunk, gothic-punk games on the market.   Without it, a game called "Punk" isn't going to do the name much justice.  The Art that Ron talked so eloquently about,  the culture and history of Punk is intense stuff, worthy of a game.

[J B Bell]

OK, this isn't nearly so substantive, but:

No education, no opportunity, no place to go.

Oooh!  Ooh!  Back cover blurb!  Back cover blurb!

--JB

[Tim Denee]

My head hurts.

Since I have no real conception of punk, and since I was barely alive during the height of punkness, and since I'm rapidly running out of passion for this project, I'm just gonna leave it more or less the way it is (aside from the changes mentioned above) and change the name to Bent

Better?

[Ben Morgan]

Punk (the abstract concept, not necessarily the game) is about the world's *inevitable* downward spiral into the toilet, and expressing your absolute outrage at being brought into such a shithole of a world. It wasn't *your* fault, you're not going to accept responsibility for the mistakes of others. You didn't *ask* to be born.

No Future.

You can't change what's inevitable. You can't fight it. All you can do is make a stupid, pointless, obscene gesture at the object of your anger: Anything And Everything (including yourself).

No Future.

Some people have no interest in playing such a game. So be it. All games can't (and shouldn't) be for all people. But there are some who can take a story about a person or group of persons on path of meaningless self-destruction, and find something in it that will make them care about the world they live in (as opposed to the world the characters live in), and then try to make something better. Just because your punk character don' care abou' nuffin' doesn't mean that you can't either.

No Future.