Beef Injection: Tim Denee's Punk

[Bankuei]

So far I really like the game as it stands, and although I know nothing about the punk movement, I can certainly express what this game says to me in the ways I can express it;  In west coast hiphop, it's "Fuck it!", in tagalog it's "Balahana"(come what may), it shows up in the Sin City comics, Return of the Dark Knight, the Watchmen, Falling Down, Glory, hell, any situation where someone is fighting a doomed battle but refuses to give in on principle alone.  

This game is about the borderline between giving up the last piece of your soul or biting out the throats of anyone who'd dare take it...You tried to be reasonable, you tried to compromise, but you gave inch after inch and now you have not shit left and they're still not satisfied.  You tried to turn to the other cheek and found the Devil uses both hands to slap.

Whether or not it should be a punk game, I think its great as it is and if anything, perhaps a name to focus on that desperate act of someone on the edge of losing their last piece of identity, of self, of ego, that final battle of a warrior who will not compromise with evil, not back down and not give up.  It makes me think of the Filipino muslim act of juramentado, where they decide to take their last battle and kill as many of their enemies as possible before they themselves are killed.  It's a positive act of suicide in a fashion.

Bent is fine, but I'm not sure if it captures what I'm feeling here...Let me know if I'm off target on the attitude tho'  :P

Chris

[Tim Denee]

Bam! Exactly Chris. Thanks.

Now, a new name... Hm. Something short, sharp, and accurate.

[contracycle]

I like most of Rons perceptions.

I think a part of the whole "no future" trope, right there in the sex pistols lyrics, was the sense a nihilism - in the face of the prospect of WW3 and nuclear apocalypse.  This crops up constantly - I am reminded of Nena's 99 red balloons.  Its not merely "be angry and do nothing" - it is that there IS nothing that can be done.  The hippies said not to trust anyone over thirty - the punks resolved not to live that long, but rather to live fast and leave a good looking corpse.  Hence all the gobbing on fans, wearing of swastikas, and deliberate abuse of institutions like the monarchy.  "Freaking the Mundanes" was much of the point.

I guess from my perception the central idea is the ostentatious rejection of the prevailing social virtues, whatever they happen to be in the particular situation.  The bases of these ideas may arise from a wide variety of political or para-political sentiments, depending on the time and the place. (frex, I'm thinking of the Rebeccas, in the 1600's IIRC, who used to attack toll booths while dressed as women.  Thats punk too, IMO)

[Jürgen Mayer]

Now, a new name... Hm. Something short, sharp, and accurate.

No Future

[Clinton R. Nixon]

First of all, "No Future" is a great title - especially if you leave the game as it stands. It ties in with the whole "No Logo" book and subsequent movement, which is what the current game is aimed at.

That said, I don't think you should rule out making the game more "punk," Tim. I understand you think you know nothing about the "movement" - but you do. Punk isn't a movement, and isn't something you have to learn about. Punk is that irrational voice inside you that wants and craves anger. Punk's about breaking something right the fuck now, and screw the consequences. (Hell, I considered myself a punk for a long time, and still do on occasion - yet I don't know any other punks, wear Hawaiian shirts all the time, and have long hair. Definitely not your normal perception of punk - but punk all the same. I really, truly recommend watching SLC Punk this weekend. It's a fantastic movie, and I think it'll give you a lot of insight.)

Your current game is great, but really fits more as one of your examples - "anti-capitalist-punk" or something. What I recommend is having each group decide what exactly it's pissed about - that way, you could run the game the way you want (pissed at globalization) and I could run it differently (pissed at fashion, or whatever.)
The truly neat thing about this is that when your anger is resolved, you can find something new to be angry about and change the whole game - reinventing characters, much like when a kicker is resolved in Sorcerer.

[Ben Morgan]

It's funny, there's an article in the most recent American Spectator about how the punk movement is really about capitalism, about being an individual, about being outraged at a system that doesn't work -- and that system is socialized statism, not capitalism. About how punks need something to rage against, and if the world really was how they thought they wanted it, they wouldn't even have the option of being punks.

[Afer all, so many disaffected youth were on the dole in the late 70s, and what is that but a social program? Certainly not a product of the capitalist ideals they were so outraged against]

Interesting. Not sure if I agree with it or not (mainly because politics makes my toenails hurt), but interesting nonetheless.

[Ron Edwards]

Ben,

Arguably, the rage (and here we are talking about punk's intellectual second-step, not its primary, reactive step) was against consumerism and its attendant values, not capitalism as opposed to socialism. The ultimate enemy was not The Bosses or Those Bad Industrialists Who Pollute, but Le Petit Bourgeoisie, or "the fuckin' punters" - plain old folks who have what they have, like having more, and also for some reason like to get screwed over for it at the same time.

But this is getting off-topic, despite how interesting it is. I especially appreciate Gareth's input. Anyway, Clinton's post is the better example; we should be talking about the game.

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

That said, I don't think you should rule out making the game more "punk," Tim. I understand you think you know nothing about the "movement" - but you do. Punk isn't a movement, and isn't something you have to learn about.

Tell that to the kids who shop at Hot Topic </bitter>.

Haha.

Anyway, right. I would also add "Clerks" to the list of inspirado. It's not a great movie, but it has some great moments...and hey, closing the store so you can play hockey on the roof...well, if that ain't punk...

[Tim Denee]

OK, here's the deal.

I agree with Clinton; there is a punk inside me. Perhaps I can make a game about punk. Then I could even keep the name.

But what I'm not seeing is how to change the mechanics of the game to support the slightly changed goals. I just don't know where to begin. Are you asking for an entirely new game?

So, what I'm asking is: if you ignore the wording, ignore the examples, and just take the raw mechanics, what do you think should stay? What should go? What sort of thing should I add in?

This will give me an idea of what you're visualizing, and then I can say, "ooooh, that's what they meant...", and then, "yeah, that's a great idea" or "nah, I don't like that at all".

[Ron Edwards]

Tim,

Most of the mechanics are fine, pending actual playtest. Now that you've considered the "punk" thing more carefully, go back to my first post of the thread and see what you think now, regarding presentation.

Also, f'God's sake, stick to your guns. You designed the game mechanics. You had your reasons, and a vision of what resolution would look like. Don't ask for our "gee, what should I change" opinions - you'll get chaos soup.

Best,
Ron

[Tim Denee]

Chaos soup - good point. I was just... frustrated. You know how it is with the things you love.

"No Future" - well, it's not a bad name, but... Characters in the game do have a future (of sorts). It's explicitly there, and you can explicitly change it. No Future just doesn't sum up the feel of the game for me.

[contracycle]

Well, I would hesitate to make many changes - primarily because, if you can do this while being "on the outside looking in", and still get the "oh yes" response from people more familiar with the subculture... well then, is there really another peak to climb?

I quite like No Future as a title... partly becuase its in the refrain of one of the all time classics (god save the queen). Hmmm...

http://www.iol.ie/~darkduv/framesindex.htm
Here is a punk lyrics archive you might be able to mine.

"Burning Soapbox" :) "The Unbearable Idiocy of Being"?  Maybe "fuck that" could work as a title, as its somewhat more abstract but cuts right to the point, and echoes a primary mechanic.

[Tim Denee]

Yeah, "Fuck That", I like it.

[Jürgen Mayer]

Yeah, "Fuck That", I like it.

I dunno... sounds like a Violence Future supplement =)

[Tim Denee]

Actually, perhaps just 'no'?