Vegetarianism - bah

[Valamir]

In this thread folks are talking about accomodating herbivorous diets.

Bah, I say.  Our ancestors didn't spend 100,000 years clawing their way to the top of the food chain so we could eat plants...why its practically anti-human.

All human achievement derives from eating meat.

Why did we invent fire?  So we could have barbequed spare ribs of course.
Why did we invent language?  So we could sit around talking about the one that got away.
Why did we invent tools?  So we could transform the flesh of inferior creatures into really bitching leather jackets.
Why did we invent weapons?  So we could get our meat fresh instead of half rancid lying on the ground
Why did we invent the wheel?  So we could get our fresh meat back to the cave before the maggots set in.
Why did we invent spices? For those times when we didn't make it.
Why did we domesticate animals?  So we wouldn't have to go so far for take-out
Why did we invent agriculture?  To give our domesticated animals something to do when we weren't eating them
Why did we invent refrigeration?  Because sometimes the wheel just wasn't fast enough...this then led to ice cream.  So even those hippy tree huggers Ben and Jerry owe their commercial empire to carnivores.

Yup...without eating meat we'd all still be tree swinging monkeys ;-)

[Thunder_God]

Meat-eating swinging monkeys!

[greyorm]

Indeed, it is true! We required meat in our evolutionary pattern, but now, alas, despite the wonderful taste of pork chops, that evolution has moved us beyond the need to cannabalize living flesh for energy and nutrients. Unfortunately, there are still throwbacks among us, and Ralph presents an excellent case-study of why these vicious, lying meat-eaters must be enslaved and put to work for we evolved homo vegetarians. Perhaps eventually, through a careful breeding progrom, we can genetically remove our cousins own need for meat. Until then, they will provide useful man-labor until their cholestorol clogged hearts explode and their corpses are churned into fertilizer for the hydroponic fields.

[GreatWolf]

I believe that, in Heaven, there will be bacon trees.  That way I will be able to enjoy bacon without something having to die for me to enjoy it.

I'm not sure how serious I am about this.

[Andy Kitkowski]

I'm a total omnivore now, but have been a vegetarian for some 8 years. I only changed when I went to Japan, where everyone eats meat IN VERY SMALL AMOUNTS AS A SIDE-ITEM (and not as a huge lump "without meat in the middle of my plate it's not a meal" thing like we do in the US), and after about 4 years of that I loosened up a lot, started eating pot stickers and some pork. When I got back to the US, I still kept those eating habits. Last time I ate "steak" I ended having those nasty, smelly meat-shits that reminded me of why I left that behind, so I went back to Light on the Meat Only.

But anyway, here's the standard retort:
Carnivores have all canine teeth. We have four such teeth of some 30-something (34?). This resembles herbivores with the capacity to eat meat, rather than true omnivores.
Carnivores and Herbivores have huge differences in molarity of stomach acid (carnivores have much higher). We fall in line with herbivores.
Carnivores have very small intestinal length (usually a straight line from stomach-to-ass, with maybe a loop or two), while our intestines look much more like a cow's.

So, that's just some science.
For me, I just get ill thinking about all the resources wasted when making all that fucking meat for our fatlander food chains. Not only that, like people will eat the nastiest grade-D meat covered with sauces and shit and think nothing of it, as long as it's somewhat cheap. It takes so much more energy to cultivate, transport, store etc that meat, far more than vegetables.

I'm no hippie, though I don't go hunting or anything like that. I'm not all about the poor animal's feelings or not using animals for testing (though I oppose CRUEL treatment of animals, which the dairy/veal/meat industry is FAR worse at than medical companies and labs and the like), but man, when looking at the amount of shit we waste in the US in spite of having so much (and getting fatter and fatter), it kinda grosses me out to think about eating a lot of meat, especially when the result of such a diet you can see everywhere around you.

But yeah, I think the main reason I stopped eating it back in the day (and why I almost flipped again recently) is because I was in a gourmet foods class, where you actually get more hands-on in preparation of food, and just seeing shit like animal heads, the ribs on the animal so they look like real ribs like what we have inside of us, etc, it kinda just made me ill. I think a lot of people would have the same reaction if they cleaned their own food every once in a while rather than just buying it pre-cleaned at the store or at the restaurant.

Finally, I gotta say that I was at my healthiest when I was a vegetarian (and also doing hardcore martial arts and shit). I gained almost 50-60 pounds in the 8 years since I gave that up. about 15 pounds of that gain was from my wife's awesome cooking (primarily veg-based), and maybe another 10 because I work I.T. and don't work out as much... but I don't doubt that the rest comes from my shitty diet habits and lack of exercise...

-Andy

[Shreyas Sampat]

Herbivores are okay as long as I don't have to cook for them. I lose so much depth of flavor when I don't have the option of using animal fats and fonds as ingredients.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Bah, I say.  Our ancestors didn't spend 100,000 years clawing their way to the top of the food chain so we could eat plants...why its practically anti-human.

-A man after my own heart, Val.

Peace,

-Troy

[John Harper]

I'm not a vegetarian. FAR from it. Well-prepared meat is one of my great pleasures.

But Andy is so right. The amount of resources wasted (in the US especially) to produce meat is appalling. The amount of poverty that could be alleviated by those resources boggles the mind.

I would gladly give up my steak if it meant parts of Africa were no longer starving.

[greyorm]

I lose so much depth of flavor when I don't have the option of using animal fats and fonds as ingredients.

Eh, that just means you suck as a cook.
{grins and RUNS}

Now, contrary to Andy, I am a fuckin' beatnik hippie wanna-be Buddhist and proud of it. And you should the kind of crap I put in my body without a second thought, just not anything that was once an animal part. That is, I'm obviously not vegetarian for health reasons -- though those are a great side-benefit because given the way I eat, adding meat on top of that would probably kill me.

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

But anyway, here's the standard retort:
Carnivores have all canine teeth. We have four such teeth of some 30-something (34?). This resembles herbivores with the capacity to eat meat, rather than true omnivores.
Carnivores and Herbivores have huge differences in molarity of stomach acid (carnivores have much higher). We fall in line with herbivores.
Carnivores have very small intestinal length (usually a straight line from stomach-to-ass, with maybe a loop or two), while our intestines look much more like a cow's.

So, that's just some science.

Hi Andy,

Before I start, I'll throw out that I'm a pesco-vegetarian. (I occasionally eat the fishies.) Comparing Carnivores to Herbivores to Humans and then making conclusions about humans is not good science. It's a shifting of sands. Many Herbivores have multiple stomachs, walk on four legs, have hooves, and only grinding teeth. A more fair comparison would be to compare to omnivores to make a case for or against omnivorism in humans as a function of equipment. Since I've never seen arguments advancing that opinion on Vegetarian advocacy sites, my guess is that is a losing argument. Humans can and do eat meat just fine.

Arguments examining the environmental effects of our method of acquiring animals for consumption, and ethical, or religious arguments are much more valid in my opinion. I personally don't make any of those. I just feel guilty eating beef, pork, and chicken, so I don't do it.

[Ron Edwards]

Oh my God.

Carnivores have all canine teeth. We have four such teeth of some 30-something (34?). This resembles herbivores with the capacity to eat meat, rather than true omnivores.
Carnivores and Herbivores have huge differences in molarity of stomach acid (carnivores have much higher). We fall in line with herbivores.
Carnivores have very small intestinal length (usually a straight line from stomach-to-ass, with maybe a loop or two), while our intestines look much more like a cow's.

So, that's just some science.

That is the worst excuse for science I've seen in a long time.

1. No one has all canine teeth. Mammals have four (4) or else they've lost them. We have four.

2. Our stomach acids are typical for mammals with a wide variety of diets.

3. Our intestinal length and conformation is nothing like a cow's.

Whoever propagates this line of trash is obviously conflating "anything but a cat" with "herbivore." All of our dietary biology conforms to that found in mammalian generalist eaters, like many other primates, pigs, and a variety of canines and rodents.

I mean, talk about Naturalistic Fallacy bullshit from the get-go, and then they can't even get the Natural right.

Best, Ron

[TonyLB]

-A man after my own heart, Val.

Funny in context!

[Andy Kitkowski]

That is the worst excuse for science I've seen in a long time.
...
I mean, talk about Naturalistic Fallacy bullshit from the get-go, and then they can't even get the Natural right.

Hey now, MY SCIENCE is sound and air-tight, like an air-tight place from which air cannot escape.

And here's a graph for proof:


NUMBERS DO NOT LIE!!!

[Ron Edwards]

Oh, that's right. This is the internet.

All right, I'll feed you some veggie food this weekend, you big dork.

Best, Ron

[joshua neff]

This is where my wife would declare, "It's not science, it's Science!" The kind of mangled scientification used by Doc Savage (who my wife insists on calling Smug Bastard) and other pulp heroes.